‘Women who dress like slags cheapen the rest of us’.

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

Said by my mother who is as left wing as Trotsky, a Corbynista and a self identified feminist.

I did say to her at the time that I thought using the word ‘slag’ was wrong. But my sons were there at the time and although two of them are too young to understand I find it worrying they might internalise that kind of thing.

We have a fractious relationship anyway (she used to call me promiscuous as an older teenager because I’d had a snog and a grope). So I don’t want to cause a lot of friction. But I wonder if I should send her an email saying that isn’t acceptable.

I cannot recall the last time I saw a lawyer in leopard print, red pout and red claws I have it on good authority the Attorney General favours a coral lip. Skirting that line between saucy minx and strong career man.

Bloody fantastic post Brazen. Spot on.

Brazen's post is very different to what you said though.

who dye their hair blonde and wear red lipstick and nail varnish, something which I can't take seriously or trust their intelligence.

starlight, I don't know if you meant other people called you grumpy, butch, lesbian etc., or it was a hypothetical example. But if someone did call you those things or made inferences about your sexuality because of your appearance, it is absolutely not on and I would disregard their comments.

To be honest they haven't peach. But on the odd time in life I've received comments, it's been from women. Yes I note the irony before having it pointed out! But I am not disadvantaged career wise, by women.
To survive in society it is also necessary to hold your own with men, unless you are in a female dominated field such as nursing, which brings its own challenges. Rather than putting ourselves up as one of many identities/appearances, with men it does become more binary, as being visible sexually as a woman, or being invisible. I have to be invisible, to succeed.
Might try the lipstick and leopard skin on a weekend and see where it takes me as a social experiment!
U2. Didn't say it was what I said. Just thought it was a fab post. Which is what I said.
I am capable of reading and agreeing with other people you know. I just choose not to agree with you. I don't need to highlight your comments in every post to demonstrate that though.

But I am not disadvantaged career wise, by women.

But other women would be disadvantaged by you if you were involved in recruitment or line management.

Some of these posts are incredible.

Do some of you really truly see another woman either with red lipstick and blond hair or no makeup and flat shoes or a combination of any of this and then judge her in her intelligence?? Really seriously??

Do some of you resloy use the term ‘slag, slut, bucket fanny in RL.

Who are you? Who do you associate with? Bizarre behaviour and belief system. Who do you share these views with in RL? Don’t people find you appaling and shocking??

I'm not Elton.
Perhaps so, and you are right. I may try to challenge that view to be honest because it's a valid point.

Does anyone on this board really use the term 'bucket fanny'? I doubt it. But yes some women call others slags and sluts based on their sexual behaviour, moreso than men imo.
Joey people tend to share their views with likeminded people. So actually nobody lets out enough information to be called appalling and shocking.
And actually yes. That is somewhat of an ingrained judgement on my part. Despite the criticism, I have maintained it.

Am absolutely horrified by some of the horrendous comments echoing OP’s mother. Oppressive regimes that severely curtail women’s rights are sadly all too often aided by women policing other women. Slut shaming is such an insidious tool of oppression that help abusers by blaming victims and they enlist women to help them with their abuse. Your worth is absolutely not linked to the length of your fecking skirt! The only thing that cheapens women is a shitty judgemental attitude. Part of my family is Middle Eastern with a certain ‘dress code’, I refused to adopt, hence, I feel particularly strongly about the right of any woman to wear the kind of clothes she likes. Obviously, this applies to especially attire in anyone’s private life and I accept there might be some form of dress code for work. I have come across women from conservative faiths who tried to shame and bully other female co-workers into dressing more ‘respectfully’, including me despite being one of the company founders. I gave them written warnings about workspace bullying. Unless, there is a contracted uniform and/or specific dress code as part of your job, no one gets to police the length of another woman’s skirt or depth of cleavage. Don’t project your misplaced misogyny on to other women or even more insidiously, dress it up as concern or feminism.

Actually Temptress I have often wondered what it would be like to wear a headscarf and see if it means I am treated differently as a woman. Unfortunately, I believe that I would be judged more for a religion than as a woman, so the comparison isn't valid.
But I can see why you have vehemently opposed that. But is this not why most uniforms are in fact conservative? Even massage therapists wear Chinese collar tunics. So they are in line with a profession, as with nursing, but they are covered up physically with a high collar, ensuring that the line between therapeutic massage and massage used in brothels is made clear?
I do believe that choosing to dress in a way to evoke sexual interest from men is giving in to patriarchal expectations, gender roles and sex expectations. And I do reject that, as you reject conservative judgements of you. Which we are both entitled to do.

I see all your points star but god this Thread is depressing reading.

Temptress I 100 % agree with your post

If a woman dresses as a ‘slut’ then she is a slut but if a man dresses as a slut he is a post modernist trans hero and should be celebrated for his bravery.

Your mother is not a feminist op.

I doubt the man would be called a slut bella. He would be referred to as a queen, gaining free entry into women's spaces. Unfortunately, he would not be on the receiving end of comments by heterosexual men, which is the one negative thing that dressing in an overtly feminine way directly invites.
He may also garner respect from the LGBTIQ community, depending on what his identity was. A 'slag' identity would surely be a caricature as opposed to part of the woman persona he was adopting. And nothing associated to sexual behaviour.

The book 'Female Chauvinist Pigs' by Ariel Levy is an absolutely great read on this topic, it discusses and dissects the reasons that women in western cultures conform to and perform behaviours that are based around the male gaze and highly misogynistic stereotypes. Choosing to objectify yourself in line with the male gaze is up to the individual, but I personally don't think that this is doing the feminist cause or the individual in question any good at all. I wouldn't use misogynistic insults like slag based upon how someone was dressed or how they chose to conduct their private life, or ever, but an outwardly sexual appearance will be judged in a negative way by many men and women alike. If you dress like someone off trash reality tv like TOWIE people are going to assume you consume that sort of low brow culture and admire it as you appear to be emulating it, and they may then question your intelligence.

We all make a judgement of someone within 10 seconds of seeing them, before they've had a chance to speak, so clothing choices are central to this. If you are dressed akin to a sex worker in an inappropriate environment people are probably going to get an impression that sex and sexuality is an important part of your identity that you want to perform outside of the accepted norm, and they may then jump to a presumption of promiscuity. I think @starlightafar and @Brazenhussy0 have made the best and most articulate points on this thread and are being deliberately misunderstood so you can all continue shouting about how heinous it is to judge a woman on what she wears. You cannot escape judgement, especially as a woman, but you can think critically about the choices you make and what messages they send out about you as an individual to people that you encounter. You can change people's minds after their initial first impression, but it's much harder work than initially getting it right. We know that certain aspects of a persons appearance have wider cultural and social connotations and stereotypes attached to them, some you can't opt out of, and women who actively chose to put forward a sexual image are viewed negatively due to misogyny. It isn't fair, but it isn't going to change anytime soon, women choosing to present themselves as a sexual being first and foremost in inappropriate environments are going to be on the receiving end of other people's feelings about that. I personally wouldn't chose to disadvantage myself by presenting a sexualised persona, and I don't think that 'sex positive feminism' is positive or feminist at all when it manifests as total conformity to the male gaze.

OP your mother used language I don't agree with, calling other women slags, sluts, bitches and cunts gets us nowhere, but nor does giving in to the idea that women must be attractive/sexy to be valuable and choosing to adhere to the male gaze and patriarchal notions of acceptable femininity.

starlightafar It’s not about a headscarf though! It is about covering your bare arms and not being allowed some simple pleasures of being comfortable, such as swimming or dressing for summers or even wearing jeans etc. Where it stops being respectable, is just a sliding scale among narrow minded bigots and you are no better than some of the moral police enforcers! And, why the hell should you be treated differently wearing a head covering, aside from perhaps ignorant bias. My mother’s side are Sephardi and I can see similar oppressive dress codes among more orthodox groups on all sides. And what completely undermines your pseudo-feminist argument is that women are the worst at enforcing oppressive dress codes on other women in the name of all manners of dogma religious or otherwise. Bottom line is that your judgement of what you think is ‘acceptable’ has absolutely zilch to do with another woman. Worry about your own outfit and stop slut-shaming other women! As an aside, your point regarding ‘Chinese collar tunic’ uniforms for massage workers is all a bit ‘Suzy Wong faux respectability’ nonsense. All sorts of people working as dental nurses, cosmeticians, hairdressers or similar adopt the same style for their work. It’s not about towing the line between sex or therapeutic work but became a fashion because it looks a lot nicer than some of the work coats. Have you looked closely at this kind of tunic, it actually contradicts your own argument, as it is regarded as highly erotic for many guys and often features as part of the 'naughty' dress up. Oh, and I know at least one of my nearby therapeutic massage place staffed by tunic wearing therapists offers ‘happy endings’. Sex work doesn’t just happen in your black and white narrow world in ‘seedy’ brothels. Don’t conflate prudery and puritanical closemindedness as feminism. Bad enough that a lot of men try to dictate to us.

I absolutely fucking loathe the idea that women who dress a certain way lack self respect or are trying to compensate for something.
It's as odious as men calling women in 'modest' dress frigid or boring.

Some of the strongest, most self possessed women I have known have chosen to express themselves through adventurous or 'provocative' clothing choices. Part of that inner strength has been displayed in their disregard for prudish, misogynistic standards, and other times by ignoring more modern 'sexualised' expectations.

Allowing yourself to assume anything about someone's personality based on their clothing is a failure to achieve adulthood.

I think we are aware enough of nuance to believe
it is advisable to be a bit careful how you present yourself, because people will judge you on your appearance
and also
calling women slags is abhorrent
and also
no way that a woman dresses "cheapens" her or any other woman

These thoughts are not mutually exclusive

@Temptress
I don't need to worry about my outfit and I haven't slut shamed whatsoever.
@Silk
Thanks for seeing the points I was making rather than as inflammatory excuse for an argument.
Did nobody else walk through town on valentines and groan inwardly at so called conservative shops window displaying tacky red underwear on models? Meant to be worn to gain love from men in the form of teddies or roses. Yes I will see women who buy that stuff as buying into patriarchal statements. Where are the jockstraps and silk boxers?! Or is that somehow different? There is an expectation for women to dress in a sexually pleasing way and just as you may find freedom in doing that anyway to stick two fingers up to those who say you can't (and good on you), I find freedom in rejecting it.
I don't see non covered arms as sexual, nor lower legs in a skirt so that complicates things a bit, and I get your argument. But if you are referring to some forbidden clothes being comfortable, see the above underwear and brazen's post. Overtly sexual clothes are often tight and made of nylon, uncomfortable fabric. I also know that nurse uniforms are a stereotypical fantasy but the sexualised ones bear very little resemblance to the reality. Most nurses wear tunics and trousers/scrubs instead of dresses.
@Trills
I don't think many posters appreciate the nuances of debate at all. That is why anything opposing the OP has been shot down.

it is advisable to be a bit careful how you present yourself, because people will judge you on your appearance Perhaps so BUT who is the arbitrator of how careful you should present yourself and why should you though? It’s about not eroding the rights of women by expecting them to make that choice. The real fine nuance is that there shouldn’t be any peer pressure for women to tow any arbitrary line and no one gets to define singlehandedly where the taste line is. And quite frankly, why should any woman or man give a flying fig about judgement? When you consciously or unconsciously police taste and attire as a social norm, you are on a dangerous slippery slope to curtail people’s basic rights to self-expression. Just because someone’s outfit is not my taste, does not make me relevant to that other person. Some people see someone with a short skirt and assume they are ‘flouting their sexuality to conform to male expectations’ and judge the woman as being insecure. Well, the same could be rightly or wrongly assumed about a woman wearing a ‘dowdy’ outfit. But either way why should you care about anyone else’s life style choices?

BUT who is the arbitrator of how careful you should present yourself and why should you though?

You are, obviously.

You get to decide how to balance the fact that you should be able to dress exactly how you wish without judgement, with the sad but true fact that we live in an unfair world and there will always be someone who will make assumptions about you.

@Meph
Adulthood is determined by different means.
Personality is defined by thoughts, feelings and behaviours. As an adult I can have thoughts about other people's behaviours. Some people-not me-can look at sexual behaviours and think 'slag'. These thoughts influence our feelings. So if I feel that I don't want to be seen as sexually attractive by men, because I know that will disadvantage me, then that is valid. From those feelings, I am capable of extending my observations and creating thoughts that other women who do the opposite, can sometimes appear lacking in intelligence-whether they are or not-because of how they choose to project their appearance onto others. And judgement is universal, and human.
From my thoughts, I choose how to behave. I behave in quite a manly way. I am a mum and dad to my kids. I am in a male workforce. Dressing up in skirts and heels is to me, uncomfortable, both physically, but also emotionally.
So yes, I am an adulthood and have achieved that very well. I also have inner strength enough to raise children, educate them, have a good salary and most important of all, respect for me as a person, rather than as a woman, based on what other people expect. In my opinion I have succeeded as an adult. I will help my daughter to do the same. But thanks anyway

Who gives a flying fig about judgement?
Er, me. When I go to a job interview or my kids parents evenings.
Or when presenting at conferences, or talking to other parents.
Or when trying to get a mortgage at the bank.
It is all very well saying who cares.
Lots of people care, often the most influential ones in gaining success as an adult.
Free spirits we are not.

Allowing yourself to assume anything about someone's personality based on their clothing is a failure to achieve adulthood

That is a bit of a sweeping statement. Many people use clothes as part of expressing their personality, beliefs, ethics and lifestyle.

You say yourself Some of the strongest, most self possessed women I have known have chosen to express themselves through adventurous or 'provocative' clothing choices.

I weighed in early on in this thread. I don't want anyone in my life who thinks it is acceptable to call a woman a slut or a slag.

I don't have any time or regard for anyone who thinks "bitchy cunt" "jealous cunt", or thinks that disliking a certain way of dressing is just based on jealousy, is acceptable. user1490607838's and at least one other poster's language and attitude are just as misogynistic as the OP's mother's.

But aren't both things - choosing to wear tacky clothing that buys into a sexual stereotype, and avoiding or judging the same clothing - are giving the tacky sexual stereotype more power than it should have.

Some people hated it when women started wearing trousers. Some women carried on anyway, and things changed. Things only change if people start noticing these barriers and judgements imposed by society, decide they're crap and decide to ignore them. There's not necessarily freedom in wearing 'sexy' clothing but freedom would come from a society that stops judging women.

Oh I don't know. That doesn't even make sense. Ignore it.