to ask how MN users can be so stupid about Trans women?

[Curiositykilledthecat113]

Why are trans women and men put into the same category? As if trans women are accepted by men. In a world where men are constantly try to look the most “manliest” do you honestly think that transwomen are accepted into this

Can I ask a question of the more enlightened mumsnetters? If, as it says in the link posted upthread, there are far fewer people with gender dysphoria than who identify as trans, than that means that lots of people are identifying as trans who DONT have gender dysphoria, my quesiton then is WHY?

I am astonished that decent trans women can not see the danger lies NOT with women wanting to protect themselves from abuse but by some MEN hijacking their cause to attack women

Most transsexual people can see this, and are against it. However, when they speak up about it, they are abused and threatened with violence and rape the same as women are. There is even a name for 'old school transeexual' people thats thrown at them by transactivists...truscum. Its awful really..the people who truly do need support and understanding and who transactivists SAY they are fighting for..get abused by transactivists too. Transsexual people can see they will not benefit from self-ID at all. They can get a GRC under the current requirements..being dysphoric and all. These changes will only benefit pisstakers, fetishists and predators. This is why women are pushing back so strongly.

lots of people are identifying as trans who DONT have gender dysphoria, my quesiton then is WHY?

Sexual kicks, trolling, expanding the bandwidth of maleness (which used to be people like Bowie being awesome, now it's a problem), bullying (lots of messed up, very young lesbians are bullied into it), being 'special', confusion about what sex and gender are, MH, kids on the spectrum are particularly vulnerable, misogyny and MRAs who want ammo to mess with women.

All of which affects the lovely transexual people who've tried to quietly go about their lives as much as women. But we're transphobic for pointing it out. Oddly even the many trans people on here that point it out are transphobic as well.

I fully ageee with the argument to keep women spaces safe and for women. I also have concern around wider issues of self id.

Take services provided by health / local authorities etc. Teenage pregnancy services for instance. If suddenly it appears the percentage of teenage pregnancies in an area has reduced, services will also be reduced. Now, this may well be because a smaller percentage of teenaged girls are becoming pregnant. But not necessarily. It may actually be that the cohort of teenaged ‘girls’ has increased in number to include self id ‘girls’ with penises who CAN’T ever get pregnant. Thus a decrease in the percentage and a decrease in funding.

It will be impossible for sex specific services to be targeted to those people in need of them if we continue along this road of confusing a social construct with biological fact.

It may also be detrimental to other vulnerable groups such as the trans community - isn’t a huge leap for the term ‘trans’ to be hate speak (must only say ‘man’ or ‘woman’ and therefore the vulnerable are invisible.

Exactly Butterfly, self ID isn't being driven by transsexuals, it's being driven by (a certain type of) men, for the benefit of men and 'genuine' transsexuals (as in those with dysmorphia) will lose rather than gain if it goes through.

Incels. Now I've had my eyes opened a bit!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/08/reddit-incel-involuntary-celibate-men-ban

@MasterWu because we have a tiny anonymous corner if the internet we have freedom of speech? Yeah, really!

Just read about incels on another thread!!

Some men really really hate women!!

@ LondonHereICome chest feeding is a thing. So are pregnant people. You could easily look it up.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.romper.com/p/9-reasons-why-i-call-it-chestfeeding-you-should-too-31215/amp
Interestingly here trans dad Trevor McDonald doesn't go over board in 're-n among feeding baby from the usual place!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2016/jun/20/transgender-dad-breastfeeding-pregnancy-trevor-macdonald

@throwcushions I hate the way women are being treated. I don't hate trans women. I have a teenage daughter, I don't want her to have to change with biological males. Please think about what we would be giving up if allowed anyone to identify as female.

A trans woman aka middle aged male-bodied person got access to a girls swim club (I think in USA or Canada). Guess where the girls ended up changing? In a cupboard. Where did the male end up changing? In the female changing room of course! No erosion of female rights there then!

There have always been males who cross dress and were once called transvestites (like Eddie Izzard). Now these people are included in trans, even if they only identify as ladies half the time. Plus a big part of trans now is a social contagion based on internet sharing. Many young lesbians are now identifying as trans men. This aspect of trans ideology is very homophobic. Young lesbians are also expected to choose trans women as partners. Google Riley J Dennis 'are your sexual preferences transphobic' if you want to have your eyes opened to the shit pulled in the LGBT 'community'.

Some men really really hate women!!

Yes they do. And believe it or not, some of those men take advantage of the trans movement to express that.

God @Crikeyblimey I hadn't even thought about that angle. But yes. Absolutely spot on.

If that little sign on the door won't stop violent males from following women in, then why on earth would transwomen be any safer in there with us anyway? It's a total logic fail.

Not that toilets are some hotbed of violence anyway - the mens or the womens.

If violence isn't prevented by sex segregation, then the only reasons for men to come in are to perve/commit violence, or for validation, and if it's for violence/wanking they're not welcome, and if it's for validation, they can sod off with invading my privacy and making me feel bad, just so they can feel nice.

If that little sign on the door won't stop violent males from following women in, then why on earth would transwomen be any safer in there with us anyway? It's a total logic fail.

No, it isn’t at all. Currently there’s a notion that some people (men) have no business being in women’s loos and changing rooms. That’s helpful because it means people feel able to speak out and facility owners feel able to enforce.

If we abolish that, it’s a free for all.

I'll read the rest of the thread in a mo. Here's my responses, OP.

Do you honestly think that a biological male would try to transition into a female if they didn’t absolutely feel that it would rectify their gender dysphoria? A male who was happy in his body would feel too embarrassed or ashamed to do something that other men would view as ridiculous like transitioning into a female.
Yes. To many, 'transition into a female' means wear a wig, a mini skirt and badly applied make up. It doesn't take much effort. The perceived advantages outweigh what other men think. Also, educate yourself on autogynephilia and people who get off on displaying their kinks in public.

Do you seriously feel that this vulnerable minority group is a threat?
Do I think an older woman being punched in the face is threatening? Yes, I do.
Do I think women being ousted their jobs to be replaced by men who self ID as women is threatening? Yep.
Can you explain why you have used the term vulnerable? In what way(s) are trans people "exposed to the possibility of being attacked or harmed, either physically or emotionally" more than anyone else in the UK?

Do you really think that all the men who view themselves as “manly” would lower themselves to dress as a woman just to peep at women in bathroom stalls? Do you really think that would happen?
Do you really think paedophiles would train for years and lower themselves to a low paid job/voluntary role just to access children?
Do you really think that voyeurs would lower themselves to mundane jobs such as CCTV surveillance just to perv at people?
Your choice of words 'lower themselves to dress as a woman' is very interesting.

Do people honestly think bathroom rape would become a thing if vulnerable trans people are allowed to shit in the same space as you?
Again with the word vulnerable. Do you believe trans people are incapable of sexual assault?

Do you seriously feel the need to fill this site with hatred daily under the pretence of caring about womens rights?
No.

Do you even know one trans person?
I personally know two. Do you?

Do you really think that all the men who view themselves as “manly” would lower themselves to dress as a woman just to peep at women in bathroom stalls? Do you really think that would happen?
Yep. I knew one who was banned from Mermaids group therapy after 2 sessions and they went to great lengths to alert other professionals to his dangerousness. He was 15 then and it was 20 yrs ago. Wherever he is now he"ll be happy the barriers are falling away. Back in the day, access to the womens' loos was the primary goal.

No, it isn’t at all. Currently there’s a notion that some people (men) have no business being in women’s loos and changing rooms. That’s helpful because it means people feel able to speak out and facility owners feel able to enforce.

To be fair I think swivel agrees with you on this.

It’s not the logic that’s the problem, it’s the pandering.

Why start a thread then flounce off once it gets a bit hard? Why not stick around?

Are the people who start these threads actually feminists sock puppet accounts because inevitably the strong arguments against self ID get made in these threads and peak trans more women?

That seems like an explanation because all these threads go the same way. It's boring though. I want the op to come back and answer some questions. Or at least react. But they can't because they know they are wrong.

Does nobody pass G.C.S.E Biology anymore?