To think the demographics of families using Grammar schools, are the ones that used private schools in the 80s and 90s.

[mountford100]

I look at my DDs grammar schools and notice many of the parents driving mid range Mercedes and Bmw and Volvo's. Whereas The private school families can be seen to picking up their kids in thier 'Betaganya's and Cayanne's ' (Bentley's and Porsche's).

This is a culture and wealth difference that has developed over the last 30 years or so . I can remember my father having an aforementioned Bmw 7 Series.

This was the 'best car' at my grammar school and was equal to what my friends families with children at private schools had.

It seems today that £60k cars are the norm of grammar schools and £150k cars are normal at private schools.

This i think explains why Private schools have become the domain of the Wealthy. Private schools have removed if not by fees than socially even the offspring of Doctors ,Accountants and other professional people.

30 years ago were able to attend Private schools because their mother took a part time job up to pay the fees.

This is no longer available !

We chose private for our children because the state system failed them. It’s a struggle to pay for. They know they are lucky to have the opportunity and are grateful for it. We aren’t wealthy but can afford it-just. Some of their friends come from super wealthy families and some are not.

We probably won’t do it for secondary though. Partly due to cost and travel time but also because some of the kids really are entitled and have arrogant attitudes. Saying that, I am a secondary teacher and students in my state top set are no different.

I like to think I’m teaching my children to respect others and behave well. They are regularly praised by others for their behaviour which I consider to be the norm of accepted behaviour and sadly I see a lot of bad behaviour from classmates-the attitude of some is shocking!

It’s a very, very unusual grammar school, then.

It may be in your area but not in mine. That is the trouble with generalising. Not everything is the same as it is where you live (assuming you live in Kent).

Not in ours either.

Not just in Kent, although it is obviously writ large there. I don’t think there s a grammar school of any type anywhere that reflects the socio- economic mix of the area it draws pupils from.

I don’t think there s a grammar school of any type anywhere that reflects the socio- economic mix of the area it draws pupils from.

In my area, grammar schools do not draw from a particular area (there is no catchment) so impossible to say. However, considering that academic ability is in a part nature you wouldn't expect the socio-economic mix to be exactly the same. I do know that many of my children's friends come from areas with a lot of socioeconomic deprivation though your assertion that it is "very rare" is not correct.

Alan Bennett again “And to say that nothing is fair is not an answer. Governments, even this one, exist to make the nation's circumstances more fair”

Why do you keep quoting Alan Bennett as though his opinions are generally accepted facts?

There's very little about academic success that is fair. This is why a many scratch their heads at the notion that it might be fixed by eliminating grammar schools, which reward lower income parents of bright children who are at least modestly motivated.

Shoot them all now!

I think there is a huge error in expecting a selective school to reflect it's area. Studies on twins for example show genetic influences on ability to learn and pass exams. We seem to have got into a position where we believe all children should have equal chance of doing well. They won't. Any more than expecting all children to reach six foot.
How often do you hear of a sports man or women mention her parents achieved in sport? Quite often. It's the same with academic ability.

I've said this before and I will say it again. You have centres of excellence for sport and music, you have special learning centres for autism and learning disabilities so why wouldnt you have specialist schools for academic excellence?

I'm in a super selective county which means only the best of the best get to go to the schools and it shows in the schools league table standings. Why should we all clamber toward mediocrity?

So the ones you get at a selective are almost bound to have parents who achieved at school. And if you achieved at school you tend to be wealthier...

Genetic influences have been noted on the brca gene. Studies have shown that these people tend to be more academic - as well as breast cancer!
the problem with comp school is that although you may be genetically predisposed to be academic, unless you are in an environment where your fellow students are all putting effort in and pushing each other to do more, do better they won't achieve their potential.
I think this is a bigger crime.

There is a horrid push towards mediocre at comps.
One of mine is in what is a underachieving school. Because the majority of the class don't do much, my DD thinks that's normal. She wrote six words in her last science lesson. Like she said no one else does anymore...but she can't see a wider picture. No matter how much I tell her. Of course parents evening the teachers are all full of praise, so she thinks it's all going very well...
I know having sat in presentations for A level , it's rare for anyone to even go to a RG uni.

“One of mine is in what is a underachieving school.“

Nobody should be at an underachieving school. Not sure what that’s got to do with a discussion about selective education, though.

“There is a horrid push towards mediocre at comps”

No there isn’t!

We chose private because we couldn’t afford to buy a home in the catchment areas of the good state schools. We live in a 2 bed flat and drive a 14 year old VW. I’d say a third of the parents at school are like us, just getting by, paying the fees straight out of our salary.

Don't agree OP. My DCs go to private school and the cars the parents drive range from top of the range Bentleys down to the oldest, most scratched up old bangers I have ever seen. Not that most people even care. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the people driving the really old cars are the wealthiest there.

I can assure whoever said grammar schools don’t affect children and comps can still be good in the same area, that is absolutely not the case here.

As I said, we have lots of children travelling from the next county over to the grammar schools in our city; a large majority of local children attending are from private preps or have been heavily tutored (£15/session, lots of people can not afford that.)

As a result the comps are not truly comprehensive at all. We’re planning to move away before we have to think about secondary schools.

I think it's daft talking in generalisations when there are at least 2 different systems in play. The Kent system I can see having detrimental effects on surrounding comprehensive schools but the Essex system? Surely a super selective system just picks out the academically able and supports them with very little effect on other schools in the county?

Some of the responses to this thread seem to assume the whole country runs like Kent.

We moved into our area nearly 2 decades ago, lured by the good schools reputation and the fact we could just about afford a humble box to call our own. We quickly came to discover however, that the GS system in our area, is nothing short of contrived corruption, dominated very much by those who can afford to play the games you have to play to even stand a chance of getting in. And fuelled by the fact that it's not just kids in your home county that are vying for a place, there are thousands of kids out of county doing the same!
The tutoring industry is booming, and kids are starting the process at least two years before the actual test! The fees are extortionate, because demand is so high. They can pretty much charge what they like. Most of the schools do cognitive ability tests, which are supposed to be the indicator as to whether your child is a 'suitable' fit for GS or not. And it doesn't matter one jot whether their kid is average or below or is up in the stars, as they will all still be tutoring them to the hilt. I know many people whose kids were deemed unsuitable for GS, yet they persisted anyway, spending thousands in the process. They have ended up struggling in GS, and have the farcical situation of needing private tutors to help get them through! Another booming industry round here.
Being quite an affluent area, the local state primaries have become quite an inferior alternative to the many private prep schools around. So anyone who can scrape it together, now goes private, and a lot of these parents are by no means rich. Many people I know have their fees paid for by grandparents etc. And bursaries are common too. They certainly do not all drive flash cars or live in large homes.
If the selection process for grammar school entry was based on identifying true underlying ability, in the same way as CAT tests for instance are done in schools, without prior notice or preparation, or the ability to be contrived in the way the current 11plus process is, I am sure things would be a whole lot better. And more importantly, kids would be placed in the right school, based on their natural merits, and not on the ability of the parents to pay.

BertrandRussell Sun 18-Feb-18 08:51:43

Alan Bennett again “And to say that nothing is fair is not an answer. Governments, even this one, exist to make the nation's circumstances more fair”

Making things "fairer" is certainly not the reason why I voted for this Government!

I can assure whoever said grammar schools don’t affect children and comps can still be good in the same area, that is absolutely not the case here.

The comprehensives can still be good in the "super selective" areas though because not all children to the exam and the grammar schools are only taking the children in the top 3 or 4% anyway. As for being "heavily tutored", whilst I sure some children might be they either still don't get in or they would have got in anyway. I don't think huge amount of tutoring beyond a session a week makes much difference and you don't need a tutor at all (can just use test papers).

“Making things "fairer" is certainly not the reason why I voted for this Government!”

Fair enough. It’s good when people are honest about their motives. There used to be a grammar school supporting poster on here who said openly that she didn’t want her children to be in the lunch queue with anyone who hadn’t got 5s in their year 6 SATS. Admrable honesty.

Here the only children who get a place are tutored - how are families who can’t afford tutoring meant to compete with that? Especially when in state school the type of questions in the tests aren’t taught at all. In private that specific teaching starts in Y3.

Or do people really think that only middle class kids who happen to be born into relatively affluent families are academically able?

We’re have the Durham system (CMS) that is apparently not affected by tutoring but results suggest otherwise - and although children can sit tests out of area to practice this is heavily discouraged, wonder why hmmm?

I've always thought that admissions to grammar school should be via a classroom assessment for the county and only those in county should be allowed to attend if all places are filled by those from within the county. It would force schools into looking at every child in district and really open up an academic pathway for all.

The tutoring part of grammars is crazy. It was happening in the 80s on the Wirral and it still happens now. I passed the 11+ with no preparation and didn't get a place at West Kirby Grammar because they said they couldn't support dyslexia. Really? I went on to get better GCSEs and A'Levels than were significantly better than their averages. Had I gone to Hilbre there is absolutely no way I would be where I am today. Thankfully my parents had the resources and know how to get me into a private boarding school which was a better fit for me. The results from Hilbre are still dreadful to this day. West Kirby Grammar was never academically brilliant. Birkenhead was academically excellent when it was a private school. Now it's not because it's not as selective. It's a shame because if you have an academically brilliant child your options on the Wirral are limited compared to other places in the country.

Oh and out of half a dozen comps in our city, one is rated good and is heavily oversubscribed. Everyone else gets a place in an academy rated as inadequate by Ofsted.

Here the only children who get a place are tutored - how are families who can’t afford tutoring meant to compete with that? Especially when in state school the type of questions in the tests aren’t taught at all. In private that specific teaching starts in Y3

I have heard people say that where I live as well and yet I know that many of DDs' friends who got into grammar school weren't tutored so it not true. Children usually do some practice papers using the ones you can buy from WHSmith etc but not all.