To think the demographics of families using Grammar schools, are the ones that used private schools in the 80s and 90s.

[mountford100]

I look at my DDs grammar schools and notice many of the parents driving mid range Mercedes and Bmw and Volvo's. Whereas The private school families can be seen to picking up their kids in thier 'Betaganya's and Cayanne's ' (Bentley's and Porsche's).

This is a culture and wealth difference that has developed over the last 30 years or so . I can remember my father having an aforementioned Bmw 7 Series.

This was the 'best car' at my grammar school and was equal to what my friends families with children at private schools had.

It seems today that £60k cars are the norm of grammar schools and £150k cars are normal at private schools.

This i think explains why Private schools have become the domain of the Wealthy. Private schools have removed if not by fees than socially even the offspring of Doctors ,Accountants and other professional people.

30 years ago were able to attend Private schools because their mother took a part time job up to pay the fees.

This is no longer available !

I look at my DDs grammar schools and notice many of the parents driving mid range Mercedes and Bmw and Volvo's. Whereas The private school families can be seen to picking up their kids in thier 'Betaganya's and Cayanne's ' (Bentley's and Porsche's). Judging by the expensive school trips on offer every year (up to three usually available), one might think this is indeed the case.

Certainly doesn't apply to us though. DH is ideologically opposed to private education too.

But to put things in perspective, DS is currently on a trip with school that cost over £1K per pupil (the first one he's ever been on from his school - he's now in sixth form). There are 40+ students on said trip. Indicative of relative parental wealth, I would have thought?

Actually, the way selection works in Kent you could save loads of trouble and money by just having a look in the lunchboxes and at the brands of coats and shoes on the first day of reception and deciding who’s going to which school then and there. There’ll be a few mistakes, but no more than there are now........

I definitely do think grammar schools favour richer families TBQH, particularly the super-selectives. Most parents do engage tutors (and some from Year 3/4) to ensure their DC get in and then will use tutors through secondary school to make up any shortfalls.

However, despite what I've said ^ I don't think most of the parents I've come across from DS's school 'ooze' money/wealth, even if they have got smart cars. They just come across as being quite middle-class rather than over monied or 'posh'.

Fair enough. It’s good when people are honest about their motives. There used to be a grammar school supporting poster on here who said openly that she didn’t want her children to be in the lunch queue with anyone who hadn’t got 5s in their year 6 SATS. Admrable honesty.

My experience is that success breeds success. Mixed ability teaching is a perfectly fine concept, but people who believe in it are free to experiment with their own kids' futures if they so choose, rather than inflicting the "comprehensive ideal" on everyone else.

“Selective education is a perfectly fine concept, but people who believe in it are free to experiment with their own kids' futures if they so choose, rather than inflicting the "11+ ideal” on everyone else“

Works both ways!

Incidentally, “comprehensive” is not a synonym for “mixed ability”.

Well bully for you, Dungeon. It’s not that way here (have friends who teach at both primary and grammar level, and my kids attend a primary in what is termed a ‘deprived’ area and they’ve not had a single pupil get into a grammar in years. Similar story in other primaries in traditionally working class areas around here.)

Incidentally, “comprehensive” is not a synonym for “mixed ability”.

I know, but I was trying to be polite!

Being at an underachieving comp has everything to do with a discussion on selection.
For one, parents like us instead of supporting the school tend if able to move their child out to a private school. As we did with a previous child.
Secondly, the gap between what my child would achieve at a more selective school and now is growing. That's unfair. She will achieve less than what she could / should do.
Unfortunately if your child is at a good comp then you can't see the issues we face.
Teachers become focussed on the ones getting the old c grade. That's where most of them sit. So your child tries less, gets a c.

The school isn't then set up for the odd one who might be able to achieve more...after all...no one ever does...

Unfortunately comprehensive is a marker of a mixed ability system.

"Teachers become focussed on the ones getting the old c grade. That's where most of them sit. So your child tries less, gets a c"
Well, any school doing that will get a shock come OFSTED time. And the problem you have is that your child is in an underperforming school. Nobody is advocating for crap comprehensives-the solution to crap comprehensives is not selection, it's better comprehensives.

"Unfortunately comprehensive is a marker of a mixed ability system"

What does that mean?

I grew up on the Wirral and passed the 11+ in the late 70s. I still remember going into school and in my little group of 4 girls, always top of the class, 3 of us had passed but our friend hadn’t.
In a year group of 84, 42 in each class, I think around 8 people passed the exam.
The system in Wirral was unfair and divisive 40 years ago, it’s still rotten now.
Those who pass have access to a great academic education, but the system failed the 74 in my year group who didn’t pass, and it’s still failing children now.
Comprehensive does NOT mean mixed ability teaching, it means taking children of all abilities and putting them in ability groups based in their ability in a subject.
Instead of segregating out the well motivated, engaged learners who can work well with others, perhaps we should invest in schools for the disengaged and those needing extra support so they are not disrupting lessons and dropping out of the education system.

...’the solution to crap comprehensives is not selection, it's better comprehensives..’

Trouble is in 4 decades no one has come up with a solution.

Unfortunately comprehensive often is mixed ability classes. Because that's your intake.
These is only one class for lots of subjects in smaller comps like ours. So if course it's mixed! It has to be!

Comps only have a reasonable chance of working if they are big enough to adequately select pupils for classes according to ability. And have enough of each ability. I taught at a large comp where the top set consisted of children who would get A, B C and D.

Exactly 55. We Iive in London. Some of the comps in our area will pretest in october to asses what set your child will go in, should that be where your child ends up. Its not coincidence that they tend tp have better results.

Friends who live rurally have a 1 class fits all system where the brighter kids are held back not so much by the less bright but by the dont give a shit’s.

Over the last few years there have been empty spaces in some of the grammars on the Wirral. They have lots of children sitting the 11+ but not enough reaching the required 236 score. They have lots of appeals but they are usually unsuccessful unless there is extraordinary circumstances.

Wirral Girls sent out a desperate email to parents a few years ago asking if they knew any pupils who had not originally sat the 11+ and wished to do so at a later than normal date.

There are some primaries on the Wirral that actively promote the 11+ to their pupils and give free after school tuition but equally there are primaries that don't do this. Some of the grammars themselves have also started to provide Saturday morning 11+ tuition. There are also several successful High schools in the area but they are massively oversubscribed. One particular successful school has "feeder primaries" and it is a bunfight to get children into them at age 4.

Well bully for you, Dungeon. It’s not that way here (have friends who teach at both primary and grammar level, and my kids attend a primary in what is termed a ‘deprived’ area and they’ve not had a single pupil get into a grammar in years. Similar story in other primaries in traditionally working class areas around here.)

Do they take the exams in the first place though? Many children will want to go to the same secondary school as their friends so if they don't expect anyone else to go they probably don't take the test. I wouldn't necessarily take much notice of what teachers say regarding tutoring either unless they teach at primary schools where a lot of children are being tutored.