To think the demographics of families using Grammar schools, are the ones that used private schools in the 80s and 90s.

[mountford100]

I look at my DDs grammar schools and notice many of the parents driving mid range Mercedes and Bmw and Volvo's. Whereas The private school families can be seen to picking up their kids in thier 'Betaganya's and Cayanne's ' (Bentley's and Porsche's).

This is a culture and wealth difference that has developed over the last 30 years or so . I can remember my father having an aforementioned Bmw 7 Series.

This was the 'best car' at my grammar school and was equal to what my friends families with children at private schools had.

It seems today that £60k cars are the norm of grammar schools and £150k cars are normal at private schools.

This i think explains why Private schools have become the domain of the Wealthy. Private schools have removed if not by fees than socially even the offspring of Doctors ,Accountants and other professional people.

30 years ago were able to attend Private schools because their mother took a part time job up to pay the fees.

This is no longer available !

Here (SW) the grammars are mostly private school kids from miles around (think a 60+ mile radius entire counties away, bet their parents think paying for the travel is a bargain compared to private school fees.)
Then about 20% middle class kids who’ve gone to state primary and whose parents can afford a tutor, plus a bare handful of working class kids who manage to get in.

Interesting to hear the Wirral Grammar schools being discussed as my next door neighbour was talking about this the other day. She went to a school called West Kirby Grammar back in the 80s. From her state primary, she said about 40% of the class would get into the grammar and the rest into the secondary modern. She was saying, if only there was an "easy option" like that in London! She did also say it was predominantly the children from the council estates that went to the secondary modern (not sure if that's still the case).

Now she has a daughter who has just done 11 plus in the London independent sector. Her daughter is mildly dyslexic and has to travel out to Middlesex as this is the only independent school she could get into. However, when my neighbour looked at the GCSE results of this school (often seen as a "back up school" at 11 plus in Central / SW London) they are exactly the same as the West Kirby Grammar which, in that area, is considered an academic school.

In London, there is no such thing as a selective school like West Kirby Grammar that takes the top 40% of pupils at 11 plus. In many cases it's the top 2-5% of pupils, or an "easier" school will maybe take the top 10-20%. Otherwise you will have to travel out into Surrey, etc. Independent schools in our area can be as selective as they like with maybe 15 applicants for every one place. Tutoring is a lucrative industry and people also pay for private preps to do most of the 11 plus prep for them. The void between the comprehensives and independents is massive because the local schools are the likes of St Paul's. People are asset wealthy in the sense that an average Victorian semi will be worth £2-3 million, but there a few displays of wealth such as flash cars. People make huge sacrifices to pay the fees if at all possible because the difference between a school that gets 95% A-A* at GCSE and the local comp which gets 20% are massive and there is little in-between.

When I first joined Mumsnet I was very confused about the ubiquitous "old banger" that everyone drives.
At the time the only cars I had ever had were from automaker for between 1 and 3 hundred pounds. To be run into the ground and scrapped when they inevitably failed an MOT. One was jettisoned because the cost of removing it from wheelclamps was more than the car was worth. That was an "old banger" to me and I couldn't imagine that private school mums were doing this.
Eventually I worked out that what was mean was that the person had bought a new or good quality second hand car in the past and since then had always had the resources to care and service the car. And because of this-the car well outlived the finance on it and was useful for many years.
That's a sensible use of resources but I don't think it counts as a sacrifice or indicates poverty.
I've got my first "proper car" now. Second hand Nissan Micra. The finance costs £100 per month. I'm very much hoping that with careful handling it will reach "Mumsnet old banger" status one day!

Well, Mountford, I don’t recognise this Enid Blyton world where children get driven to school in expensive or ultra expensive cars (or driven at all) and where a woman gets a little ‘part time ‘ job to assist with the fees.

But thanks for confirming that Grammars are as socially selective as they are academically, and that the social selection matters so much to those parents.

(Parent of a high achieving, high performing comp in a non-desirable area of London).

@mountford100
Just tried to send this as a PM but was unable to
Hi
I noticed you said dd2 wanted to board, I’m not sure where abouts you live, but queen Elizabeth’s college in crediton Devon offers state boarding at a far more reasonable price than cranbrook ☺️

www.qe.devon.sch.uk/assets/Documents/Boarding-Fees-2018-2019.pdf

Hope this helps xx

Yes, I thought that, especially when someone upthread referred to their '8 year old pile of shit'. I would regard an 8 year old as a good used car, so they have either been incredibly unlucky with their purchase, or they just think they are really hard done by to have such an 'old' car!

I'm also not sure how OP is noticing all these fancy cars. Surely, most secondary aged pupils go to school by themselves or if they are driven, they are just dropped of quickly and the parent drives away.

I am a middle earner who pays for my DC to go to private school. Most people i know that do the same are middle earners, don't drive fancy cars as they can't afford it! We drive a second hand A class. Grammar school are miles away and only accept those that did exceptionally well in the exam. Therefore could take from any walks of life. They are too far away for us. Private schools offer bursaries' and scholarships and allow alot of children from poorer backgrounds to go to the school. Some people aren't aware of that and therefore don't even think about it for there DC. We have three local independent schools who do attract the super wealthy but they are not all like that.

You can see parents and cars at parents evening. Or other events like concerts etc. Not day to day.

I have a p/t job - my annual wage would not cover the fees. I’d have to go back f/t and at a decent salary.
I know children at grammars who aren’t from seriously well off families. You have to be able to afford some tutoring, but if you’re naturally clever you should only need it for exam technique.
As far as private schools go, it’s more a case of having money rather than brains - although some are more academic than others. Prob less competition than for grammar as only the v wealthy can afford.

Haha yes Cecily "8 year old pile of shit" exactly!

just dance i am sorry I disagree. To get into any private school you need to sit exams. Some kids who passed the grammar didn't even get an interview at the local private schools. You just need to look at the GCSE and A level results to see that the kids are clearly 'Academically minded'.

“You just need to look at the GCSE and A level results to see that the kids are clearly 'Academically minded”

What are you comparing them with?

Spacecadet, there is another thread by a parent with a choice between really good bursary for a private school, or a selective state school, Even with the bursary, she has to pay £5k per year fees (plus any desirable extras, I assume). Shelling out £5k pa is not for truly ‘poorer ‘ families.

My DH and I both work full time. We are not remotely poor. But could not afford private school .

I just counted.

My car is 17 years old.

Private school parents tend, understandably, to have a skewed view of what “poorer” means.

bertrand if your child is at a school where over 90% of pupils are achieving A* it's not difficult to look at tables from across the country to make your comparisons.

The basic fees for a private school quoted uptnread are more than I earn. I’m a single parent working full time. I don’t have any way to earn any more than I do. Even sending one of mine to the grammar was exoensive for me and took serious budgeting. And I had to make sacrifices to give them that opportunity.

Spacecadet: it depends on the private schools. Some are for tne kids who just missed Grammar but whose parents are scared of comps, some are for kids who are not at all bright, some are very selective. Though it is hard to see how they can have higher entry standards than a super-selective gramma.

That’s where the “beat up old Volvo” meme comes from. “Our children go to private school nd we’re really poor. Wedon’t go on foreign holidsys - we just chuck the tent in the boot of our beat up old Volvo and head for Cornwall”

slackpanther i know alot of schools that give out 100% bursaries and scholarships. My point is they are available but I appreciate that not all could afford it if it wasn't a 100%. That's why if you have a bright child go down the grammar route if you have them close by

@BertrandRussel. Quoting Alan Bennett about private schooling being unfair is all well and good but life isn't fair. Those who bleat that life should be fair are the lambs to the slaughter of the wolves of competition. Appeal to better nature by all means but recognise that nature has developed over thousands of years, make that millions of years, to imbed a desire to further the lives of one's own offspring over that of others. You might as well complain that a lion shouldn't slaughter the offspring of the male he has just displaced. It's just not going to change things.

Making private schooling illegal won't change the routes by which people support their kids to have advantage. Whether it be location, lessons, etiquette, or a myriad of other ways this unfairness will persist until you and your ilk require everyone to have the same outcomes. That is totalitarian.

It didn't work in communist states. It won't work for the Uk either.

I don’t ever drink coffee out, for example. When the rest of the office do Friday buns I’m on a diet. My make up (such as it is) is cheap as I can buy. My phone is my dad’s old one with a £10 giffgaff. I really think some of the people on this thread have no idea of the meaning of poor.

bertrand I think you have hit the nail on the head. Some folks don't understand what it is to be struggling and they come across as arrogant when they babble on about only being able to go skiing once this year or have to holiday in the UK with there 'banger'. I find it bloody irritating as i grew up in a zero bed tenement in Glasgow with an outside toilet in the 70s with parents struggling to make ends meet . Unless you experience it people really don't get it.

This thread is an eye opener, I thought grammar schools had disappeared, been closed or converted into comprehensive or academies as that is what it's like here. Had no idea there were still so many about!

As I said earlier, there were plenty of kids at our primary whose parents struggled to scrape together the weekly 3 quid for swimming..........