To think the demographics of families using Grammar schools, are the ones that used private schools in the 80s and 90s.

[mountford100]

I look at my DDs grammar schools and notice many of the parents driving mid range Mercedes and Bmw and Volvo's. Whereas The private school families can be seen to picking up their kids in thier 'Betaganya's and Cayanne's ' (Bentley's and Porsche's).

This is a culture and wealth difference that has developed over the last 30 years or so . I can remember my father having an aforementioned Bmw 7 Series.

This was the 'best car' at my grammar school and was equal to what my friends families with children at private schools had.

It seems today that £60k cars are the norm of grammar schools and £150k cars are normal at private schools.

This i think explains why Private schools have become the domain of the Wealthy. Private schools have removed if not by fees than socially even the offspring of Doctors ,Accountants and other professional people.

30 years ago were able to attend Private schools because their mother took a part time job up to pay the fees.

This is no longer available !

So it's a set number of PP children who get places-and they are competing against each other rather than against the non PP children. I can see a career for a sneaky accountant thinking of ways for people to have a year of no declarable income while their children are small so they can get into the PP pool. . Like the guy in Hitchhiker's Guide who spent a year dead for tax reasons!

Do people really look in such detail at other people's cars?

At my DD school the proposal is to have a lower mark for PP girls taking the SET ( selective eligibility test) and the schools entry exam . The SET is a mandatory test by the borough for any child wanting to try for a grammar school and providing they pass the test they are then invited to the entry exam for their chosen school/ schools.

So it's a set number of PP children who get places-and they are competing against each other rather than against the non PP children.

No, a set number of places are allocated to PP with a lower score. They can also compete with the non-PP children but on the same level. i.e. some pupils will have got in whether or not they were on PP whereas others got in with a lower mark.

How is the lower mark decided?

Sorry to be inquisitorial- but I am interested!

This was the 'best car' at my grammar school

Must’ve been a pretty poor performing grammar school, they didn’t even teach you about the correct use of apostrophes.

I can see a career for a sneaky accountant thinking of ways for people to have a year of no declarable income while their children are small so they can get into the PP pool. grin. Like the guy in Hitchhiker's Guide who spent a year dead for tax reasons!

It wouldn't surprise me although the lowest entry mark isn't that much lower so perhaps not worth the bother. Some of the children I knew who were eligible were actually from quite high income families by the time they took the exams. The temporary low income was due to their parents splitting up or redundancy. Two eligible pupils even went to a private school.

Kid at private school and car is 15 years old - always starts first thing in the morning even in bad weather or if it's not been driven for a week

How is the lower mark decided?

They just give out places to those on PP with the highest marks until a certain proportion have been allocated. The lowest mark is always a bit lower than the lowest mark for non-PP pupils.

The lowest mark is always a bit lower than the lowest mark for non-PP pupils.

I mean that the lowest mark among those who get in is always a bit lower than the lowest mark for non-PP who get in.

Grammar schools are basically private schools selectively based on intelligence not money. Private schools are full of kids who are not academically capable, whereas grammar schools arent.

The grammar school i went to was a 5 minute walk from the council estate i lived on, and backed onto a motorway and the connecting estate there! There were posh kids there but they were largely in the minority, most from the estates.

People who look for things to demean people with rather than add anything to a conversation are very shallow people indeed !

Alternatively perhaps they have nothing to add due to their limited knowledge ...

Very shallow?

You made a thread assessing someones wealth based on the car they drop their kids to school in.

No i was making relevant points about how society has changed !

The demographics of people using private schools and those using the best state schools have radically changed over the last 30 years.

I can also assure you i don't fit in with neither the wealthy that continue to use private schools, nor the professionals that now use state schools due to financial reasons.

I am a neutral bystander in this and have no axe to grind about social economic changes.

I certainly have no chip on my shoulder like many on here concerning how their professional salaries can't buy the lifestyle they desire !

I went to an independent school in the 1989s. My folks drove new Nissans, but were Nissan dealers. The range went fromancientstatiinwagons to new Mercedes. My father picked me up once in a septic sucking vehicle, but that's a long story.

I thought you were talking about the Wirral! I picked up my friends DD from school the other week and thought the same. I asked my aunt and she said no one now can afford the private schools. Mostyn House has closed, kingsmead limps on and Birkenhead has left the private sector to be a 'grammar' school with results dropping as a result. Birkenhead was always highly selective.

My friend was telling me that they were looking at Queens because the local boarding schools are also not that great for her DD. Ruthin is good but it's predominantly Chinese and Russian and when they looked at the results of the local students they weren't that great. Penrhos/Rydal isn't worth the tuition. Moreton Hall is the same as always apparently (had a reputation back in the day of being for stupid rich girls). Ellesmere was the best they found and given the fees of £35k a year (by the time you include extras) and stacked up to what the grammar school offered at no additional cost. Why pay £35k a year in school fees when you don't have to?

“Grammar schools are basically private schools selectively based on intelligence not money”

Nope. They still select on social class and money. Just covertly, rather than overtly.

Don’t see how someone on over 500k can’t afford private schooling for their children. Ok the famous boarding schools cost huge amounts but a decent day school is under 20k.

£500K a year is what ? the top 0.1% of the population !

Want. Yeah the Wirral is an odd one . Traditionally voted Tory at council elections but Labour at general elections. This was no doubt to preserve the grammar schools !

West Kirby Grammar is quite splendent looking towards across the estuary to North Wales .

Another odd thing about West Kirby is places like Meols /Hoylake house prices there can top £3 million yet Wirral West elected a Labour MP and a Momentum one at that !

At least Alison Mcgovern the Wirral South MP (ex head girl of Wirral Girls Grammar) is on the right/correct side of Labour.
However, the 'mob' want her replaced/deselected ...

Another odd thing about West Kirby is places like Meols /Hoylake house prices there can top £3 million yet Wirral West elected a Labour MP and a Momentum one at that !

Probably a lot of them work within the NHS, as consultants or doctors, which is being torn about by the Tories, and they wish to preserve it.

But most parents at private schools do make sacrifices so that they can do the right thing. I know many parents who have stayed in unpleasant marriages, remortgaged their house, taken a second or even third job, eaten beans on toast nightly etc. to be able to afford fees. My own parents did it. We were in the decidedly working class income bracket. Our roof leaked and we couldn't afford to replace it. The cars were 10-30 years old. We had our own chickens and grew a lot of stuff to save money on groceries. They remortgaged the house at one point. They took out loans. I did my bit and got a scholarship. My parents didn't smoke, go out, go on exotic holidays, have cable tv, new phones/computers/clothes/widescreen TVs etc. A lot of their friends who wear earning similar amounts and paying off their mortgages, going on annual holidays overseas, buying lots of plastic crap etc. told my parents that they were wasting their money when they could just get the state to pay the costs but they were wrong. My parents met their financial obligations and, more importantly, they did what was best for me. And they did this ag great sacrifice. Thankfully the 'sacrifices' I have to make to send my children to a private school are minimal but many parents aren't so lucky. Don't pretend that they are all rich bastards who have never worked a day in their life. Most of them are not.

This calculator suggests

This calculator is depressing, it suggests that what DH earned 2 years out of his PhD is more than he earns now and what I earn now is less than I earned when I joined my current company (we are both higher rate tax payers so not exactly on a low salary). In other words, salaries are worth less and less. Which ties in with my earlier point that my PILs could afford more on a single lecturer's salary in the 80s than we can afford on 2 professional salaries now.

“But most parents at private schools do make sacrifices so that they can do the right thing.”

The right thing? Really?

“My parents didn't smoke, go out, go on exotic holidays, have cable tv, new phones/computers/clothes/widescreen TVs etc.”

On what planet is that “making sacrifices”?

To quote Alan Bennett “Private education is not fair...those who receive it know it, or should. And if their education ends without it dawning on them, then that education has been wasted”