If you don’t see the issue with TW being classed as women please read this.

[bambambini]

Especially if you have daughters who play sports. Do we really want to have “woman” “girl” “female” totally redifined so that sny msle can say they are a woman? If yes- are you really ok with your daughters facing this now and in the future?

amp.theage.com.au/sport/afl/hannah-mouncey-visits-afl-house-after-failing-to-get-information-from-officials-20180202-h0swtp.html?__twitter_impression=true

*so

I'd need to be dragged back kicking and screaming now I trust they would delicate kicks and girly screams! 😄

My teenager plays a (non contact) sport at national level. And I don’t know a single parent who thinks that it would be fair for boy and girls to compete against each other.

The fact that they train together is irrelevant.

I’m amazed that anyone whose child is a serious athlete can have so little understanding of the factors that influence performance. It’s not all about height .

And I feel sorry for any girl whose parents are so desperate to look cool that they are ready to throw her and her team mates under the bus.

No. In real life I'm a ms

And darling I was at vinopolis . Which is Mumsnet prehistory. I've been supporting women on here before Chat got its _

Women’s AFL in this format has only just taken off. We’re at the start of the second season. The misogynistic sporting boufheads that were decrying, saying it would never take off have been gloriously embarrassed by its success. Women are finally becoming more engaged in sport here, and as they often do better on the international stage are finally getting their due credit.

What would happen if this person gets to play in the league? She’ll discourage other girls (I rather think she would encourage more boys who fail to be professional, to consider self id!) The misogynistic boufheads get to claim that women’s sports are no good and we get put back in our place.

I find is so bizarre that anyone who disagrees with this stuff is presumed to be male and childless, as if other women who disagree don't have a right to their own opinions on this, or must automatically be wrong, not worth arguing with, or confused.

These threads just go on and on and on. It's tedious. If anyone could actually provide real statistics about the actual number of teenage boys/men who are thinking to themselves "gee, you know how I could make it in the sporting world? I'll pretend to be female. Beat them all. That's the way to do it", I'd be fascinated to see it. People don't declare themselves to be trans for a laugh, they do so after long fought internal battles, knowing they don't feel right in the body they were born with. Rates of trans-related suicides are horrendous - it's not something that any average person would do, with all the bigotry and prejudice and misery they'd face, without feeling it was their only choice to be able to survive.

This is getting to the point where you all sound like bitter conspiracy theorists, clinging on to isolated incidents of issues that have absolutely no semblance of the vast majority of people identifying as trans, who pose no more threat to anyone than you or I.

So yes, if my daughter was playing sports and a trans female wanted to participate, it wouldn't even register as a blip on my radar, other than to think I was happy that that person was able to be who they really are.

Unfortunately Shinty, the success of women’s sports is exactly why men will try to muscle in. They can’t win against other men, but will easily beat women so that’ll help their damaged ego. The misogyny runs deep in any TIM that thinks they have the right to demand entrance to women’s sports.

The para Olympics are a really good example. I mean, no-one would fake having a disability to try for an Olympic medal would they? The answer is yes, they do and they have. If we go down the route of self id, say goodbye to women's sport. It will just become a bunch of failed male athletes.

Oh for God's sake. Think of all the men you know - regular blokes you're friends with, husbands, brothers. How many of those men do you think would switch their gender - change their entire identity - solely because they wanted to win a game/do better in sports? Because not a single man I know would do that, with all the social repercussions, simply to get ahead, no matter how into the sport they were. Not a single one.

This is so wrong I can’t believe anyone would think it’s right.

Have some women been brainwashed?

@octoberfarm do you understand what self identification means?

How much hard ship do you think someone like Danielle Muscato goes through?

Oh let me think october. How about the paedophil who lives a few doors up from me, or the man who raped and molested me throughout my childhood. Do you recon they would NEVER think of pretending to be women to access female only areas? How about the fact that half of the trans population in jail are sex offenders. Do you think they might pose a risk?

I completely understand the concept of self ID, I just don't see the threat you guys do. I think that the tiny minority that might misuse it doesn't outweigh the benefits for all the people who would benefit from it, who have felt like they don't fit all their lives.

I generally avoid these debates like the plague as they're so depressing, and I will never be able to view this like you do, but if you did any research yourself into the rates of trans suicides, you'd get a pretty decent picture of the sort of issues that trans individuals have to face each day, for being in this situation through no fault of their own. I find the lack of compassion for anyone who doesn't fit the mound on these threads saddening. Really, really saddening.

@PositivelyPERF, I'm truly sorry that you've been through what you have. But I stand by my belief that the vast minority of people pretending to be something they're not is not a reason to deny genuine people who aren't awful, and just want to live, the right to live a happy life. Sex offenders are sex offenders, but just because the majority are male doesn't mean that we should rule out the entire male populous as a threat, right?

How will a self identification law help struggling trans people?

A lot of transsexuals are against self identification and are concerned about how damaging it will be for them. Do you care about what they have to say?

October woukd the men you know fake a disability for glory? Well people have, in fact whole teams have.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_at_the_Paralympic_Games

Faking a disability would require levels of deception you simply would not have to stoop to with self I'd. You would simply sign a form saying you id as a woman, and could then not be challenged. It is bonkers.

octoberfarm what rights do trans people not have that a self identification law will bring them? How exactly will it help them?

As you say October you stay away from these threads, so now your lack of knowledge is understandable.

That story reads to me as a young boy who was sent to boarding school, finding success and affirmation from his peers by being a completely awesome. sporting success but completely losing out on any emotional support by a) being at boarding school and b) his parents splitting up. He then spends his precious visits home with his 'successful' mother 'fashion' person and is obviously left alone enough, in an enormous house, on his own, surrounded by the paraphernalia of 'femininity' - he finds immense comfort and pleasure in dressing up in this stuff and has a huge conflict between his masculine 'sportiness' (male binary) and his love of his mother's fancy, frilly clothing (female binary). Somehow the pleasure they feel dressing up makes them feel more 'themselves' (plain old happiness?) and the narrative of being born in the 'wrong' body takes a hold.

So somewhere along the line, feeling good about yourself (might be sexual might not be) feeds into this feeling that something has gone wrong - you haven't the confidence to come out and express yourself in the sex you are and so believe that you are the 'wrong' sex. Only by behaving and performing the sex that you want to be can you truly relax and be happy. Unhappiness threads its way through their whole story and it's not about being born in the 'wrong body' - it's more about societal constriction, lack of confidence, self-esteem and depression.

But hell no would I want them hurtling toward my daughter on a football/rugby pitch. You can't 'feel' away your physiology.

Bad analogy there as obviously, the majority of sex offenders aren't trans - what I meant to say (sorry, tired) is that you can't rule out an entire group based on a few bad people. We'd never get anything done. Perhaps the point @PositivelyPERF made highlights it well - it's only in extreme situations that this really becomes an issue - it's not regular people that are likely to go switching their gender solely for the sake of a medal or a sporting win. So to take away the rights of just a normal, kind, good-hearted trans-person because some bastard pedophile screwed it up for them, it just doesn't seem fair.

Also, please stop calling anyone that disagrees a troll. It weakens your stance if it's your go-to argument for anyone that disagrees with your opinion.

Nobody wants to take trans people's rights away october.

Again, how will a self identification law help struggling trans people?

I'd also argue that it's significantly easier, and far less socially impactful, to fake a disability than to switch gender, with all the social ramifications of doing that.