If you don’t see the issue with TW being classed as women please read this.

[bambambini]

Especially if you have daughters who play sports. Do we really want to have “woman” “girl” “female” totally redifined so that sny msle can say they are a woman? If yes- are you really ok with your daughters facing this now and in the future?

amp.theage.com.au/sport/afl/hannah-mouncey-visits-afl-house-after-failing-to-get-information-from-officials-20180202-h0swtp.html?__twitter_impression=true

Look at the size of him compared to the female players, and the thickness of his neck. If they keep letting him play with women he's going to fucking kill someone, and the idiots going "oh well but if she really feels like a woman..." will be partially to blame.

My hope is that I'll raise my kids to be kind, non-judgemental. and accepting of differences

So would it not be 'kind' to expect transwomen to be 'accepting of deiiferences' to realise that their particular circumstances (male body) means that they do have a significant physical advantage over women which is unfair and/or dangerous in most sports?

Or is only females that have to display this behaviour?

My dd is 9. She will have to find another club when she gets older if she wishes to continue playing. They only have 3 girls in her age group. Mixed rugby is far too dangerous post puberty. Non contact training obviously is fine.

Much as it is terribly sad for a trans person to be excluded from playing contact sport, it is a necessity to protect natal females and trans men. And yes, I do believe some athletes, who haven’t quite made it as men transition (and do not have reassignment surgery) just so they can win.

In response to mrsmcgarry objecting to being defined by having a vagina; surely to a very large degree, women have come to object to feeling defined by having a vagina, because historically women have been wrongly and unscientificallly defined and controlled, ie women aren't clever enough, or women are too emotional or too fragile to fly planes, build bridges, to vote, to own property, to make decisions etc.

Clearly this was always scientifically and objectively complete nonsense, but yet the stereotypical and misogynostic ideas persisted as men had control of the law and the money and the defintions, and the nonsense was used to control us.

But not all biological differences between men and women can be wished away however annoying or frustrating they may be. A rather trivial example (forgive me as it is the middle of the night), is the diffence on alocohol limits for men and women.

The limits are different for men and women and scientifically derived from looking at the differences in biology. Now some women might be annoyed that they cannot safely drink as many pints or glasses of wine a week as men, but they simply cannot and a reasonable woman has to accept that difference for their own health.

Accepting this example of biological limitation/ difference bears no relation to the completely unjustified limitiations placed women in the past and to ignore biology is dangerous for women's health in so many ways.

If anyone could actually provide real statistics about the actual number of teenage boys/men who are thinking to themselves "gee, you know how I could make it in the sporting world? I'll pretend to be female. Beat them all. That's the way to do it", I'd be fascinated to see it.

The whole thing about whether boys or men will fake a trans identity in order to win at women's sports is kind of a red herring (although of course some will - sport notoriously attracts cheats). Either you think it is fair for males to compete against females in sport, or you don't. The sincerity or otherwise of a man's trans identity is beside the point. Fallon Fox, for example, is a surgically transitioned transsexual, but if you care about fairness and safety for female athletes, you still wouldn't want him breaking women's skulls in MMA competition.

And further, people who think that sincerely trans-identified men and boys belong in women's sports are in truth arguing against sex segregation in sports, since they think that having a male body does not constitute an unreasonable advantage. That is, they are against the idea of separate sporting competitions for women and girls at all, EXCEPT, and this is the odd thing, they seem to want to preserve them solely as a means to validate the feelings of trans-identified men/boys. The actual reason for having women's sports in the first place (female people get the health and psychological benefits of sports, chances to achieve and earn, etc), means less than nothing to them.

Hence comments like octoberfarm's:

So yes, if my daughter was playing sports and a trans female wanted to participate, it wouldn't even register as a blip on my radar, other than to think I was happy that that person was able to be who they really are.

Gallus Mag at Gendertrender really nailed this attitude as the prevailing narrative being pushed about Mouncey in the WAFL: Above all else, women’s sports should exist to help men achieve their dreams.

The female athlete that loses her spot to a male? Disposable. Welcoming men who non-conform to sex stereotypes of masculinity into male sports? Of course not. That is women’s work.

Mark Robinson of the Herald Sun described Hannah Mouncey as a “lost soul” whom women’s sports had disgracefully failed to save, which is the mission of women’s sport.

Hannah is a 'lesbian' (but of course he is!)

He has ALREADY broken women's bones playing AFL against them.

He is currently playing WOMEN'S handball for Australia. (Another contact sport).

Butterfly
So all that would happen if you mixed sports is that sports would be male.

And mediocre sporting transwomen would still be mediocre sporting transwomen, which is why transwomen and their allies are not arguing for this much more honest approach. They want to take the place of a biological female in a women's team instead, because it would validate their sense of being female and make success very likely. Well, wins at least, if not respect.

I cross-posted with you DonkeySkin. When October says we're only talking about small numbers of transwomen in women's sport, I think one transwoman is too many. That's a space a biological female has lost out on. And to date there are many more than just one transwoman in participating in female sport.

If you accept that there is only a ‘tiny’ amount of men that would choose to self id so that they could participate at the top level of their preferred sport, because they can’t make it in the men’s game (I don’t think one within the first season is that tiny a proportion).

But that tiny amount can so physically hurt their opponents, and puts them off, is that ok? If women and girls are then put off of a sport because they know that they will face opponents that will hurt them, and they have no way of protecting themselves. What is that going to do for women’s sport?

Why does the right of a strong individual trump the right of the weak?

There are lots of women losing out:

Second-rate man erases women's records, kicks woman off volleyball team: volleymob.com/bra-transgender-player-tifanny-breaks-superliga-scoring-record/

Third-rate man deprives multiple women of medals, career:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_World_Weightlifting_Championships_%E2%80%93_Women%27s_%2B90_kg#Results
www.sobserver.ws/en/13_01_2018/editorial/28770/Could-Iuniarra-Sipaia%E2%80%99s-ban-be-a-conspiracy.htm

Third-rate man kicks woman off team, sends her to another city to find a job

www.usatoday.com/story/sports/hockey/2018/01/11/canadian-women-hockey-jessica-platt-transgender-toronto-furies/1023685001/

52-year-old man kicks off 18-year-old girls a foot shorter than him
www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2012/12/04/college-basketball-transgender-player-gabrielle-ludwig-robert-ludwig-mission-college/1744703/

And there are plenty more.

Every last one of these men are heterosexual males, not one single one of them has any glimmer of a right to be playing with women.

And frankly anyone who could look at any of these cases and disagree has drunk WAY too much of the kool-aid.

Have a look at this fucking dickhead
(the one in the middle here: theclothesline.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/The-Axis-Of-Awesome-Adelaide-Fringe-2015-GOUD-The-Clothesline-960x500.jpg)

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/02/how-i-fell-in-love-with-roller-derby

That's a women's sport that could easily become majority biological male. Perhaps some teams already are.

It's absolute nonsense.

If Jordan wants to get silicone implants and wear makeup, well that's really up to him (and his wife, to an extent, if she consents to being in a 'lesbian' relationship). But deciding that he is a female sportsman, despite being a hulking great fat bloke? Unfair & unreasonable.

my link got messed up:

theclothesline.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/The-Axis-Of-Awesome-Adelaide-Fringe-2015-GOUD-The-Clothesline-960x500.jpg

The answer Shinty is in your question. We are weaker and ultimately as we are not strong enough, we have no recourse. We are the second sex yet should welcome the primary sex into the food with open arms in all contexts otherwise we are TERF’s.

But that tiny amount can so physically hurt their opponents, and puts them off, is that ok? If women and girls are then put off of a sport because they know that they will face opponents that will hurt them, and they have no way of protecting themselves. What is that going to do for women’s sport?

This is such an important point, Shinty. Opening up women's sports to males doesn't just affect the individual athletes who will lose places/medals to them. It affects the desire of women and girls to want to participate in sport in the first place.

It isn't just elite athletes who will be put off, but anyone wanting to casually compete, any girl who would like to try a certain sport because it looks like fun and she might be good at it... the knock on effects on the health and fitness of the female population at large will be huge. But who cares, right? As long as men and boys with gender feelz are able to 'be who they are'.

Sorry to say it but I actually laughed out loud when I clicked on that link in the OP. I want to believe that Hannah Mouncey is a stunt dreamed up by a bunch of Aussie lads for a wind-up.

There will come a day when we look back and shake our heads in amazement at how delusional and insane this transgender trend was. I see it as on a par with the tulip mania or the witch trials, some form of mass insanity where we all know the Emperor has no clothes but everyone is scared to speak up for fear of repercussions.

I mean look at the state of that individual, for god's sake! 6'3" and built like a brick shithouse. She can identify as a woman if she wishes to, sure, and it's polite for civilized people to respect her chosen pronouns etc but, come on, there's just no way anyone could approve of her playing a contact sport with women. If they do, then why not just break down all gender barriers in sports and have women and men compete directly against one another. (Hint: guess which gender will be winning all the gold medals from now on?)

I hope there's a flip side to this where trans women are taking on all the shitwork that 'cis' women do around the world, taking care of the elderly, birthing, feeding and raising tiny babies, nursing the sick and doing menial work for minimal pay. It might be a shock to the trans community but there are actually downsides to being a woman in most countries around the world.

It strikes me that so much comes down to women being expected to be the more kind sex... and to stop being mean by not letting men join in when they want to.

And that posters like Mrsmcg and october* are taking are actually treating transwomen not just similarly/ with the privilege given to men, but with the extra allownaces given to children^ or childen with special needs....

To me they are saying, "Aw come on children, play nicely together" and if a child is younger or has a need or disablity or similar and cannot play quite as 'nicely', or share quite as well, or keep exactly to the rules, then most parents would say encourage making a bit of an exception for them. "Oh well, give the child a bit of slack, let them win this one... they don't quite understand the game the way you do".

Which is fine and wonderful and tolerant and compassionate and kind and necessary, WITH CHILDREN, but should this kind of super-motherly "making exceptions" thinking should not be automatically applied to transpeople? Especially in sport. Especially with grown adults..!

Especially if the argument that being trans it is not a mental health disorder??

If transwomen are women, then transwoman should be every bit as capable of returning that empathy, compassion, that standing aside to be kind to someone else, for putting others first, that so many women ahve and are socailsed to have... That mrsmcGarry and October are showing... but I would ask them why you do not expect the same back from transowmen?

Or are you saying that transwomen are so mentally delicate and special that they cannot accept or be encouraged to accept the unescapable fact that their male bodies given them advantage over women? That their feelings are so special and delicate that they get a 'pass' and an open door to whatever they want?!! Because it seems to me that no one cares so much about other people who are suicidal, or disabled, or both. No athetes who rely on heavy medication such as large doses of steriods due to illness are given exceptions to compete.. no one has created a category for every type of disabiltiy yet this may make some people feel utterly excldued and sidelined.. but that has to be accepted by those people as being 'life'. Like you are encouraging girls to accept that a male bodied athelte who feel like a women has more important and valid feelings and needs to play sport than the girls do.

And the "be nice and give everyone a chance" attitide is entirely at odds with the concept of competitive sport where the goal is to win!!! Fairly and within the rules for most people, but to WIN! All being nice and stepping aside will do is encourage girls to be the 'losers' and the not so 'nice' unfeminine and unkind girls, and the boys, and the transwomen to be the winners!!!

Or as Donkey says, do you not beleive in sex segregation for some sports where sex based biology and physique make a difference?

There absolutely are trans people taking on the shit work. I've worked with two in social care. Transmen both.

Socialisation is a wonderful thing.

Together we can do anything!

Apart nothing.

Inion: IKR, twitter.com/HannahMouncey/status/952315602659520512

And that posters like Mrsmcg and october are taking are actually treating transwomen not just similarly/ with the privilege given to men, but with the extra allownaces given to ^children or childen with special needs...*

This is it exactly. It's a weird combination of fawning and deeply condescending and it sets my teeth on edge. Especially when it's coupled with demands that other women play along too, or else.

Apologies if this question is triggering but how many medical professionals' authorisation does a woman need to have a termination? It seems that at least the same amount of formal authorisation should be needed to obtain a GRC.
I know that a person needs to live as their target gender to obtain a GRC but it seems crazy that this should include bossing other women especially vulnerable women out if their safe spaces. I wouldn't do that to another woman.

mrsmcgarry

How would you feel if your country team daughter lost her place on the county girls team because enough boys decided to proclaim that they were female and as they’re all biologically stronger/bigger/faster this would mean they had a natural advantage in the sport?

Wouldn’t she be upset? Would you genuinely not think that was a bit unfair?

Because this is happening in real life, in adult, professional sports! Biological men are taking national team spots in sports such as weightlifting, taking world records, winning world championships, etc. Which means some women have actually lost their funding as they don’t rank high enough for their local version of Sport England have stopped making them a wage meaning they can no longer train full time. Which is awful.

You say you don’t want people labelled because of their genitals? Well in my opinion the Trans movement is one if the biggest labelling movements going. As a woman I don’t want to be labelled/stereotyped that I should feel a certain way/behave a certain way. The only argument I’ve ever seen a TIM put forward for wanting to change to a woman is saying rubbish like they feel like a woman, they feel more feminine, they like things women like.

What the hell are women supposed to feel like? What the hell are women supposed to like?

Because I wear trousers, have short hair and like rock climbing does that mean in a man? After all I hated pink and dolls and netball as a child and begged to play soccer with the boys. Thankfully this was in sensible times, these days I’d be injected with testosterone.

Is it that some women are so programmed to be subordinate that they really believe the desires of a few men should be fulfilled despite the physical damage they will cause to women?

Alone Sapiens is a very weak species.

Together we can do anything.

God I wish there was a segregated sport where transmen could gain an advantage over men. It is so shitty that men just aren't affected in the same way and so all the unfeminine complaining falls to meanwomen, while men can just ignore the issues.

Fucking typical. And also entirely due to differences in biology.