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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

If you don’t see the issue with TW being classed as women please read this.

423 replies

bambambini · 13/02/2018 00:09

Especially if you have daughters who play sports. Do we really want to have “woman” “girl” “female” totally redifined so that sny msle can say they are a woman? If yes- are you really ok with your daughters facing this now and in the future?

amp.theage.com.au/sport/afl/hannah-mouncey-visits-afl-house-after-failing-to-get-information-from-officials-20180202-h0swtp.html?__twitter_impression=true

OP posts:

Thread gallery

itsmeimcathyivecomehome · 15/02/2018 17:59

Pressed post too soon! I don't know what a bisexual woman would think - do any posters have any idea?

Original poster

bambambini · 15/02/2018 18:00

I don't really get what you're suggesting we do about it OP? Are you suggesting that a person who looks too masculine to be called a 'woman' shouldn't allow themselves to be called a woman? I think a lot of people who were born biologically/physically female would have to call themselves men in that case. Who are you to judge who is too masculine/feminine regardless of what they were born as?

What in earth are you talking about. A “masculine” looking female is a woman, a “feminine” looking male is not a woman.

And i’’ suggesting the radical and controversial view that males should not be allowed to compete (as women/girls) against women and girls after puberty. I imagine that would be the majority view.

OP posts:

S0ph1a · 15/02/2018 18:01

Sportswomen CANT take a stand because they will be disciplined by their governing body and potentially deselected.

They need other people to speak out on their behalf.

Original poster

bambambini · 15/02/2018 18:03

I Think if they would all need to stand together. The public would be behind them.

OP posts:

Boulshired · 15/02/2018 18:12

According to Hannah there is 40 to 50 trans playing at different levels in AFL including children and trans men. I have no answers but this will probably not be a one off.

Stompythedinosaur · 15/02/2018 18:47

I am happy for my daughters to interact with trans people in any situation.

I honestly couldn't give a fig about sport generally, and I don't see this as a comparable as an issue to people's right to express their gender identity.

Backenette · 15/02/2018 18:53

I am happy for my daughters to interact with trans people in any situation.

I have zero issue with interacting with individuals- I know two men transing to women, both lovely people. Both incidentally quite horrified at the whole TRA stuff, they just want to get on with life.

I wouldn’t ever want to face off against them on a rugby pitch, either of them. One was a big guy and one quite slightly built, even they would flatten me - the risk of injury is colossal. It’s like putting a child up against an adult - massive risk of spinal injury.

Sometimes there are good reasons for separation of sexes and indeed ages. Sport is one.

OlennasWimple · 15/02/2018 19:02

Good for you Stompy.

Can you not see, though, how this issue is of concern to women and those who are interested in sports?

TheButterflyOfTheStorms · 15/02/2018 19:41

I am happy for my daughters to interact with trans people in any situation.

Interact with? Absolutely. I hope my DD grows up accepting, tolerant and with a wide and encompassing view of how people can present.

Compete against? Absolutely not. I did martial arts and she is starting to and I don't want her in competition with male-bodied fighters. Someone could get killed. My DH also does martial arts and I've seen him fight. There is no way a woman should be competing against him.

And it's not about how someone looks. Unless you're looking at their fully intact penis, male musculature and height.

People keep talking about all the 6 foot 7 women they know. Bullshit. Have a google of the bell curves for women's heights. Women's heights are a steeper curve around 65 inches. 6' 7" is 79 inches. A vanishingly tiny number of women are that tall. Some bloke in my class last week was. It's fairly common for men. Up to 84 inches for men is probably more common than 79 for women.

Men are bigger. We are a sexually diamorphic species. Biology is not bigotry.

JacquesHammer · 15/02/2018 19:43

I honestly couldn't give a fig about sport generally, and I don't see this as a comparable as an issue to people's right to express their gender identity.

What about women’s rights to play sport safely? Or doesn’t that count? How about professional sports women? Or is it only women with a penis who get to have rights?

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/02/2018 19:51

I couldnt give a fig about sports

But we are so close

Womens football on the telly and my dad watching it and enjoying it and talking about it...c'mon people thats huge!!

And coverage of women in the olympics and other errm sports stuff athletics and things (shit running out of sports terms)

And my husband boring me shitless cos he wants to watch the womens and men's athletics

And my dad saying how great he thought the womans ice hockey was and the speeds they got to

Honestly,,,its massive

And its only just happening to this extent and now its in danger

Well you can fuck right off if you dont think its an issue

And i LOATHE sports...honestly LOATHE...

itsmeimcathyivecomehome · 15/02/2018 19:53

So someone's right to express their gender identity - whatever that actually means, as it will be different for everyone - should trump someone else's right to a fair playing field?

YOU might not "give a fig" about sport, but millions of women do. Can you really and truly not see that it might be harmful for young girls trying their best if they always lose to a body that was born and developed male? Should they just not try in the first place, because you don't care about sport?

There's "interacting with trans people", which is just getting on with life without being a bigoted tool - and then there's being wilfully blind to the threats posed to young girls and women by the proposed self identification changes. If you'd be happy for your daughter to be alone in a bathroom or changing room with a 6' bearded bloke who decided that morning that he's a woman and must be allowed to use the ladies, then that is simply bizarre to me.

HairyBallTheorem · 15/02/2018 20:02

Since someone brought up the 6 foot 5 female rugby player she allegedly played against, I did exactly what Butterfly suggests and had a look at the distributions. (All about the maths, me). In the UK, 1 in every 350 men is 6'5" or taller. In the UK, among women, 1 in slightly over 900,000 women is 6'5" or taller. Allowing for a population of 75,000,000 of whom a significant proportion are children I make that less than 30 women in the whole of the UK.

So did this mythical female rugby player exist? I very much doubt it.

itsmeimcathyivecomehome · 15/02/2018 20:05

Also, how did that poster know how tall the apparently 6'5" player was? Who meets someone on the other side in a match and says, "oh, how tall are you then?" !!

KatieDesperado · 15/02/2018 20:07

I honestly couldn't give a fig about sport generally, and I don't see this as a comparable as an issue to people's right to express their gender identity.

I don't give a fig what gender Hannah chooses to present as on a sports pitch (or indeed anywhere). Hannah can express their gender identity, alongside people of the same biological sex who share Hannah's build and strength.

Where's the problem in that?

Gender is not the same as sex.

TheButterflyOfTheStorms · 15/02/2018 20:07

Mmmmmm statistics

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 15/02/2018 20:09

I honestly couldn't give a fig about sport generally, and I don't see this as a comparable as an issue to people's right to express their gender identity.

Me neither. But what I do give a fig about is men being egged on to smash a woman's face in, whilst pretending to not be a man, and all in the name of sport. Fuck that.

Historicallyinaccurate · 15/02/2018 20:41

According to Hannah there is 40 to 50 trans playing at different levels in AFL including children and trans men. I have no answers but this will probably not be a one off.
Slightly off topic, but isn't that quite a large number proportionally compared to general population?

iamawoman · 15/02/2018 21:03

Maybe all the top lady footballers should start self iding as males so they will get signed up by the premier leagues for millions - as obviously they will be just as good as the likes of sanchez (my other hslf tells me he is a top footballer) ! Whatcare the chances that they would be percieved as being equal !!! Honestly i am more angry at the ignorant women that are supporting this notion that women should be subjected to being trashed in sports just because some man is determined to beat them twice as a man and as a woman!! And i have no interest in sport
I cant wait until a transwoman with male genatalia does rhythm gymnastics

BrandNewHouse · 15/02/2018 21:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AskBasil · 16/02/2018 08:02

"I am happy for my daughters to interact with trans people in any situation."

Would you be happy for them to interact with this guy?

God help them if they see immediately that he's a man. He'll smash their face in.

But hey, you go you, with your virtue signalling.

Do you think Alexis is a woman?

I don't.

Not only do I think he looks like a man, I think he is a man. No, I know he is a man, because I'm not so desperate to virtue signal that I'm not a bigot, that I'm prepared to throw my daughter and everyone else's daughters and grand-daughters and future female family members under the bus, just so that I can retain my right-on credentials.

If you don’t see the issue with TW being classed as women please read this.

Thisusernamethingistricky · 16/02/2018 09:15

I am happy for my daughters to interact with trans people in any situation.

I honestly couldn't give a fig about sport generally, and I don't see this as a comparable as an issue to people's right to express their gender identity.

Wow. Care to expand on that and back up what you are saying or are you just here to virtue signal?

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/02/2018 10:05

Dd is watching that survival of the fittest programme where the boys are in direct competition with the girls

And obviously the girls are losing, i asked dd if there were allowances made for the girls and she says there doesnt appear to be

So we have just had a little chat about how unfair it is because they are stronger and it must be disheartening to lose every single time

And im sure these boys are lovely but obviously they are chuffed to win and they are all back slappy and arent we great

Well yeah

isawahatonce · 16/02/2018 10:09

oh get a life

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 16/02/2018 10:14

oh get a life

I beg your pardon

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