If you don’t see the issue with TW being classed as women please read this.

[bambambini]

Especially if you have daughters who play sports. Do we really want to have “woman” “girl” “female” totally redifined so that sny msle can say they are a woman? If yes- are you really ok with your daughters facing this now and in the future?

amp.theage.com.au/sport/afl/hannah-mouncey-visits-afl-house-after-failing-to-get-information-from-officials-20180202-h0swtp.html?__twitter_impression=true

I think if you are going to be OK with males like this one competing against women, then you should be OK with men as big and heavy as Mike Tyson identifying as bantam weights and fighting against smaller lighter men in the ring.

But you won't be, because you know it's unfair and being unfair to men, is not fair and you're fair-minded.

Whereas being unfair to women, is the natural order, so no change there.

Oh I fully believe there are transmen doing shit work in caring professions for low pay, Butterfly. As you say, socialisation is powerful.

Just as transwomen's male socialisation that the world revolves around their needs and desires and ego is powerful enough to transcend anything their 'ladybrain' can throw at them... which is why 90% of high profile trans people are transwomen aka trans-identified males.

Male needs come first! Women's safety in sport has to be sacrificed because a trans-identified male had some sad feelings and is crying all day about meanies who refuse to recognise their womanhood...

Oh I fully believe there are transmen doing shit work in caring professions for low pay, Butterfly. As you say, socialisation is powerful.

Just as transwomen's male socialisation that the world revolves around their needs and desires and ego is powerful enough to transcend anything their 'ladybrain' can throw at them... which is why 90% of high profile trans people are transwomen aka trans-identified males.

Male needs come first! Women's safety in sport has to be sacrificed because a trans-identified male had some sad feelings and is crying all day about meanies who refuse to recognise their womanhood...

This is what men do transmen

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/15596180.Transgender_victim_glad_he_reported_rape/

The victim said regarding the rape "I thought he was joking on because I had already explained, yes, I’m a trans man, I identify as a man, I’m attracted to women, I didn’t see why he could be serious."

Whereas men say of transwomen:

pbs.twimg.com/media/DVI6pU6XcAA0Rke.jpg

But women are expected to just blindly accept that, yes, men can be women whenever they want to be. Even sometimes, just two or three days a week like this entitled arsehole

www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002

He then wrote the actual rule book which tells his subordinates that not only is he going to use whichever toilet he wants depending on what he decided to wear in the morning, they have to like it: outleadership.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Credit_Suisse_Transgender_Guide.pdf

Then just to deliver an even bigger 'fuck you', the FT and others decided to give him women's awards: www.ft.com/content/6ad9144c-93d4-11e7-a9e6-11d2f0ebb7f0

www.lbwomen.org/celebrating-lb-women-in-the-top-10s.html

Despite the fact this shithead is a married man who only even PRETENDS to be a woman on alternate Tuesdays or whatever the fuck it is (so if he's had a late night and fancies a lie-in he can be a bloke in the morning, but if he's got a bit more time he can get up and be a 'woman').

Fuck right off.

@octoberfarm @blackberryfairy You parent your way, and I'll parent mine. My hope is that I'll raise my kids to be kind, non-judgemental. and accepting of differences. I'm not sure there's anything sad about that at all.

Oh the weight of such heavy irony.....

We have so much work to do to repair this Tory-wrecked society.

We can do it if we work together!

This division only hurts us. The sick. The poor. The workers. The disabled.

Together we can.

I have been watching a lot of pro cycling recently.

You start noticing the spectators after a while.

The women stand back and applaud or shout out cheers and encouragement or take pictures. They move out of the way if the bikes look to be coming close.

All of the people getting up close and personal to the cyclists, faces contorted with yelling, pushing right into the roadway and crowding the route, wearing stupid Borat mankinis and generally behaving aggressively, are men. One of them even appeared to spit at a rider

(As I saw more and more of this, I was reminded of a recent thread about how the TW at the Hyde Park event were reacting similarly, even to their own supporters when challenged.)

I identify as a very tolerant and excepting woman (not cis, that's a label I don't need). I watched the pain and heart break that transition can have on a number of individuals and their families and seen the relief when they are accepted for who they are. I actually don't agree any of this is about gender. It is society who has created labels and I have no issue with anyone who doesn't fit in one of societies ill designed not fit for purpose categories.

However, I also play rugby, a sport I love. It is rough and unforgiving. If I had to play against biological males who ARE bigger and stronger, taking them on in tackles, rucks and scrums I would be broken in 5 minutes. Or I just wouldn't earn a place on the team. There is a very good genetic and biological reason women and men don't play rugby together. It's about health and safety and fairly matched competition.

This is so depressing and damaging for young women and girls.

Firstly, it’s just dangerous for men to be competing against women in contact sports.

Secondly, it’s depressing because trans women have distinct biological advantage over women when they compete. Already female elite athletes are being pushed out to accommodate men.

What does that say to our female players? Don’t bother because you’re less likely to achieve success because a bloke has self identified. And it you’re in a contact sport you’re much more likely to be seriously injured.

But that’s fair right? As women we should just accept that men have a right to this and if we don’t then we’re Terfs or transphobic. What a crock of shit.

Name changed. I'm a woman who just happens to be 6' 2" and nearly 18 stone heifer . I usually wear jeans and rugby shirts. I have been told that I'm built like a rugby player but I'm really not. Most players on professional teams aren't 6'2", i.e. the height of an unusually tall woman, they're 6'5" and taller. They weigh the same as me, but it's all muscle. If I trained as hard as a professional rugby player I wouldn't be 18 stone, I'd be 13 stone.

The physical differences between men and women are not smoothed out by the clothes we wear or the style of our hair.

I am not a CIS woman, whatever the hell that means. I am a woman with the body of a woman and the cumulative cultural baggage of millennia.

makeourfuture

Would you like to make a contribution (instead of trite commetns) as to how the left is going to band together to help women? Because so far they have trampled women underfoot in the rush to side with TRAs and transactivists and be trendy and right on.

They don't fucking deserve my vote for that.

Males damage other males whilst playing sport - what the fuck do you think would happen to a female?!

I am ashamed to say it, but I have reached Peak Trans too. A few weeks ago I was sticking up for the rights of trans people... I should say that I do believe in maintaining the Gender Recognition Act and preventing discrimination against trans people and recognising them as a separate group with rights. I support third spaces, e.g. bathrooms and changing rooms. I even support a third category in sporting events.

But that is not what they want (by 'they' I mean the radical activists). They want the law to say that they are absolutely no different to biological women because biology is not important and there should be no right to separate spaces based on biology e.g. changing rooms, shortlists, rape crisis centres etc. That is problematic.

I don't agree that all trans people are perverts or sex offenders and I fully recognise that gender dysphoria is a condition. However, I have been doing some research and this is not at all like the fight by same sex couples for equality. They were simply arguing for acceptance for who they were- not denying anyone else's truth. If they had argued that heterosexuality did not exist and the only type of relationship that should be recognised was a same sex one, I doubt that people would have got on board with that argument. Also, nothing they fought for involved any sort of harm to heterosexual people.

The thing that made me hit peak trans was India Willoughby on Good Morning Britain with Karen Ingala Smith. Her total arrogance and ignorance was demonstrated when she had a go at KIS for pointing out that domestic violence is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men and said that men had had a 'rough ride'. That is not a woman- it's a misogynistic man. Same with Lily Madigan who is feted in the media as some kind of revolutionary, despite being a teen of below average intelligence who was involved in a hate campaign against a woman and mocking her appearance (I will leave out the rape jokes from the old twitter account). Lily's Twitter seems to be devoted to posting dumb gifs from teen movies and crying about being 'deadnamed'. Absolutely fuck all about the interests of the women she is now apparently representing. For Lily, the women's role is solely about trans rights and proving that trans women are real women. No further agenda or interest, which is fair enough given that Lily is not a woman and has no experience or insight into the issues that affect women. India Willoughby's stance is clear evidence of why it is so dangerous to allow trans women to represent the interests of all women. They should represent their own interests, but those interests are in direct conflict with the rights of women.

Someone up thread said this and maybe someone is brave enough to ask this person this question on twitter: if this person is allowed to play in a female sportscetagorie despite being biologically male, you are actually saying that sport segregation based on biological sex should cease to exist. Because adding a person that is biologically male means removing segregation baed on biological sex. Why would you as a person feel comfortable doing this? Really, why? I would feel ashamed even asking.

But thinking of other people's feelings instead of my one probably outs me as a woman...

SusanBunch

Don't be ashamed. It took quite a few of us a while to get here. The fact that you did get here is what's important.

I am ashamed to say it, but I have reached Peak Trans too. A few weeks ago I was sticking up for the rights of trans people... I should say that I do believe in maintaining the Gender Recognition Act and preventing discrimination against trans people and recognising them as a separate group with rights. I support third spaces, e.g. bathrooms and changing rooms. I even support a third category in sporting events.

Please don't be ashamed of realising that the current Trans-activists are actually abusive, aggressive, violent men. Funny how NONE of the trans-activists want that third space, they just want women's spaces. Women's everything.

I think sport though is the one that will turn more people than anything. People watching a man beat a woman and get a medal for it...will definitely turn those that are on the cusp of the issue.

For those that actively promote men beating a woman and getting a medal for it - shame on you.

Thanks, agerbil. The problem is that it has led to a sense of terror because it seems that not many people (other than on here) can see it and I don't feel comfortable raising it with people I work with (I work in academia so there is a strong risk of student backlash). My research draws a lot on feminist theory but the issue doesn't seem to be being tackled in feminist journals (although to be fair, I probably haven't looked hard enough). I follow Rebecca Reilly-Cooper on Twitter so I will check her stuff out. However, it is disappointing that there isn't more rallying from feminist academics (but I can totally see why nobody wants to risk the backlash). I remember when an article was printed about rape myths and the feminist academy immediately fought back and condemned the article as dangerous and misogynistic. I guess part of the problem is that many feminist academics have written pro-trans articles in the past, not realising what would eventually unfold. So fighting back against it would involve a great degree of backtracking.

I find it oddly paradoxical that radical feminist anti-trans threads always end up insisting on the weakness of women, and their inability to hold their own against men.

I find it oddly paradoxical that radical feminist anti-trans threads always end up insisting on the weakness of women, and their inability to hold their own against men

FFS, they are talking about physical weakness. It is well known that women have nowhere near the physical strength of a man. Even a puny guy who weighs less than me could easily overpower me. Lack of physical strength has nothing to do with mental strength or competence.

Are you seriously saying that radfems should believe that men and women have exactly the same physical characteristics. They're feminists, not imbeciles.

Modern male rugby players are monstrous, and it starts from school where 14 year olds may be doing six-days' training a week including weights, etc.

www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/the-rugby-world-cup-has-never-been-bigger-and-nor-have-its-huge-players-10506563.html

The OP and the article referred to talk about AFL, but then most of the posters referred to rugby, which is a very different game. Are we talking about rugby here, or Australian Rules Football?
Poster Beansonapost said Australian Rules is like a hybrid of rugby and US football, which makes me wonder what game s/he's been watching.
There isn't any of the blocking and charging that there is in those games; Australian Rules players are noticeably slimmer than rugby players because bulk is redundant in an Aussie Rules player.
This doesn't really change the whole argument about men playing in women's leagues, but it might be of some comfort to anyone whose daughter is obliged to play AFL football with men.

Cases like this are rare in the grand scheme of the entire sporting participation worldwide, but these are test cases that set precedent for the future. Once this is allowed it's hard to undo. The whole premise of the comedy film Blades of Glory is exploiting a loophole allowing two men to skate together and pull off moves that wouldn't be possible between a man and a woman! That is now a real possibility and I predict that an (Summer or Winter) Olympic medal of some description will be won by a TW in the next 2 or 3 games.

CoalTit I think the rugby thing comes from the OP's second link about Caroline Layt, a trans rugby player.

Also, even English football which is a no contact sport can lead to players being injured by tackling or colliding, so whichever sport it is isn't going to be great for girls. Plus if they allow it for AFL, why not rugby etc?

Statistically AFL is as dangerous as rugby and more dangerous than NFL.

www.abc.net.au/health/thepulse/stories/2014/11/04/4121352.htm
medium.com/upstart-magazine/nfl-vs-afl-injury-comparison-3e21042975ff

I don't think we were discussing exclusively AFL, as most of us are in the UK, so we were discussing the more relevant rugby.

SusanBunch I have a Twitter account, and am engaging with hundreds of people who have reached peak trans, including a lot of transwomen. They in turn, have hundreds of followers.

I've been looking at my Twitter feed this morning, and there are several men who originally dismissed women's concerns around the trans cult as petty and bigoted who've now admitted that they were wrong. Some have even apologised - especially now that they see how this issue will have an adverse and long-lasting affect on the lives of their wives, daughters, granddaughters, sisters and other females that they care about.

If you've been following the many threads on Mumsnet about the self ID issue, you would've seen the links to a few pieces written by journalists that have now started to write gender critical articles.

People are finally starting to take this seriously.