If you don’t see the issue with TW being classed as women please read this.

[bambambini]

Especially if you have daughters who play sports. Do we really want to have “woman” “girl” “female” totally redifined so that sny msle can say they are a woman? If yes- are you really ok with your daughters facing this now and in the future?

amp.theage.com.au/sport/afl/hannah-mouncey-visits-afl-house-after-failing-to-get-information-from-officials-20180202-h0swtp.html?__twitter_impression=true

As long as they can prove their testosterone level is the same level as cis women, i don’t see the issue

But they can't. They are allowed to compete with levels several times what a woman would ever have whilst women are disqualified for drugs if they take testosterone

if you block out the rights of all trans woman based on the exceedingly few that have bad intentions, that's an entire population you're denying the rights of

What? No-one is saying they can't have human rights, what we are saying, is that they should not be allowed to compete in women's sports. Allowing them to compete in women's sports would mean you are denying the rights of all women, to compete on a fair playing ground.

As long as they can prove their testosterone level is the same level as cis women, i don’t see the issue

JCo24 I'm going to post this picture again, of Gary (the man on the right), who now identifies as Lindsay, and plays Basketball as a woman. Even if "her" testosterone level, was now as low as a females, can you not see with your own eyes how "she" might have an advantage over the average female basket ball player. Look really hard at the photo.....and wait for your light bulb moment....

Photo....

JCo24 go ahead. Drop that pathetic comment without reading the thread, we wouldn’t want you to run the risk of receiving some education. 🙄

Hannah is 6ft2, and over 15stone in weight. No matter what her hormone levels are this gives a distinct advantage and is not comparable to the average 5ft7ish women in AFL.

Lindsay is SEVEN feet tall, btw

JCo24 because different testosterone levels are not the only sex characteristics. There are many others, many of which have a massive effect on sporting performances, and which are not reversed by lowering testosterone levels.

Arrgghh! How many women AFL players have had an article published in a U.K. national newspaper?

And if any other person except a self identified transwoman, basically said women struggle in sport because they do cardio instead of weights they’d be lambasted as a sexist, stereotypical dinosaur who had no idea what women are like as professional sports people.

In addition, I love the comment from the person saying there’s a female AFL player doing a PhD in this very issue - but no, the layperson who has only just been allowed to join the AFL knows more apparently.

Can you imagine the fuss if women started demanding the same sort of changes? Christ, a woman was hired to play a fictional alien time lord and look at the reaction that inspired!

Yes, yes... or the all female line-up of the new Ghostbusters film

www.denofgeek.com/movies/ghostbusters/the-new-ghostbusters-internet-comments-and-ruined-childhoods

But here’s the thing. Y’all are hating on me because I won’t blindly follow the Mumsnet mantra of Trans women are the enemy, when I play sports with women of all different shapes and sizes. I once got knocked out by a women who was 6ft5 and possibly about 20 stone playing rugby. I would rather take on Lindsey.
(For the record it was my own fault, I didn’t get low enough)

jco if it makes no difference then why do you play with women at all? So exculsionary of you to only play with women and not men when apparently these days there are no differences between men and women at all in the sporting fields.

Would you say the same if your dd gave up sport after getting nowhere competing against boys?

Like the pp's dd and the athletics.

And also

Under any other circumstances people would think it was odd that fifty something year old men wanted to play basketball with high school kids.

Suddenly as a transwoman it's celebrated

Y’all are hating on me because I won’t blindly follow the Mumsnet mantra of Trans women are the enemy, when I play sports with women of all different shapes and sizes

The key word in your comment above, is women. You play against women, not trans women.

Dare I say, that the penny will finally drop for you, when trans women, (or men who say that they feel like women), start to join your female team and opposing female teams, and you won't have a cat in hell's chance of winning against them. You will slowly but surely be pushed out and replaced by trans women, who are faster & stronger than you. So, I suggest you make the most of your sport whilst you can.

fool

Y'all are hating on me
No one is 'hating on you' simply addressing the point you made about testosterone levels being the only issue around transwomen (ie biologically male persons) competing in women's sport. It isn't, and a basic knowledge of anatomy and physiology would help you understand that.

I saw this link on facebook yesterday OP in a group discussing this issue.

Someone in that group mentioned Fallon Fox, a male to 'female' MMA Fighter causing serious injury to a woman he was allowed to fight as a 'female' fighter.

I had to look the story up and basically when Fallon Fox was allowed to fight Tamikka Brents, he beat her so severely that she was left with concussion, a broken orbital, and seven staples in her head.

You know how long it took Fallon Fox to injure Tamikka Brents this badly? Two minutes. Just two minutes to beat her that severely.

Brents has since said that she has never experienced a fight like this in her life before, and that allowing male to 'female' MMA fighters to fight women is not fair.

She was reported as saying “I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right."

“Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn’t move at all in Fox’s clinch."

“I still disagree with Fox fighting. Any other job or career I say have a go at it, but when it comes to a combat sport I think it just isn’t fair. At least not until we have more scientific proof that it is or isn’t fair. More research is needed for sure. Like I said, I am not a doctor, I can only say my opinion and I don’t believe that she should be allowed to fight other women. If it were strictly BJJ or wrestling or something like that sure, but MMA is a completely different sport.”

We need to listen to women who have had first-hand experience of this disadvantage.

I'm never going to be an MMA fighter or have the sort of body, strength and skill of Tamikka Brents. And I'm definitely not going to have the body or strength of Fallon Fox.

But I'm fairly sure that I wouldn't be able to fight a man, even a small man, and do him the kind of damage he could do to me. My nephew, at eleven years old, was upset one day and tried to push passed me and I couldn't even hold him off. He was my height and weight at the time, I was an adult, he was stronger even then.

If I punched my DH in the face and he punched me back, I know which one of us would come off worst in that (not that we've ever punched each other). He's not that much bigger than me but he's a lot stronger and just built differently.

How this kind of thing can be allowed in sport is beyond me.

Fallon Fox was described in one report I saw as an ex-millitery man and father who left Tamikka Brents with potentially career-ending injuries.

Other reports have headlines such as "Transgender MMA Fighter Brutally Injures Female Opponent" and Transgender MMA Fighter Destroys Female Opponent" and "M to F transgender MMA fighter nearly kills opponent."

Women shouldn't be put in this situation in their sports, their careers, or their lives.

I once got knocked out by a women who was 6ft5 and possibly about 20 stone playing rugby

I've played/coached/fundraised/refereed/implimented rugby for nigh on 20 years and i have NEVER seen a woman who could even get close to the size of a man.

And this ficticious woman who knocked you out. She still had the muscle density of a woman, the bone density of a woman, the reach of a woman, the hip formation of a woman; which is quite categorically different from playing against a man.

I think it’s quite basic to accept that Hannah will have much more physical bulk and strength than her opponents as she was born male.

For that reason, I think that she should not play in the women’s league. It seems that there are a lot of trans women who played sports when they were men and still want to play sports so it would make sense to set up a transwomens league so they could still do this.

I feel sorry for both Hannah and the women in the women’s league because all just want to play the game. It’s a question of matching opponents suitably imo. And that involves creating a transwomens league.

I guess it’s something doctors should decide who goes in what league. As there will be intersex people and a transwoman who went through male puberty will be physically different to a transwoman who had blockers and didn’t go through male puberty. Anyway. In the Paralympics, officials categorise people into groups that contain appropriate opponents, I would think that we should do the same for those who are transgender or intersex.

I once got knocked out by a women who was 6ft5 and possibly about 20 stone playing rugby. I would rather take on Lindsey

I've really tried to understand your thinking here....but I am stumped. You've been knocked out by a 6 ft 5 woman, but you feel that a 7 foot man, would be an easier opponent?

Riiiiight.

I am also confused as to why MNHQ is allowing people to refer to Hannah as “him”. Most people don’t think that Hannah should play in the women’s league but that is no reason not to respect her choice of pronoun or to respect her as a human being.

Him is the male pronoun. Hannah is male.

I feel sorry for both Hannah and the women in the women’s league because all just want to play the game. It’s a question of matching opponents suitably imo. And that involves creating a transwomens league

I agree with the latter part of that statement. However, I don't feel sorry for Hannah whatsoever How can "she" claim to be a part of the sisterhood, whilst placing actual women in harms way, solely to her own advantage. That's not being a woman. That's positively hating women. I think she's a fucking dickhead. Maybe that's just me.

This makes me so sad. TIM's in women's teams make sex segregated sports pointless. It was always about sex not gender (biology not presentation)

We'll have to get rid of all the sex segregated teams. Which means female participation will go way down.

Hannah doesn't respect women, so why should they respect him?