If you don’t see the issue with TW being classed as women please read this.

[bambambini]

Especially if you have daughters who play sports. Do we really want to have “woman” “girl” “female” totally redifined so that sny msle can say they are a woman? If yes- are you really ok with your daughters facing this now and in the future?

amp.theage.com.au/sport/afl/hannah-mouncey-visits-afl-house-after-failing-to-get-information-from-officials-20180202-h0swtp.html?__twitter_impression=true

I am also confused as to why MNHQ is allowing people to refer to Hannah as “him”

You think that Mumsnet, a forum mainly for women, should silence the women who don't call Hannah "she"? Bloody hell!

Most people don’t think that Hannah should play in the women’s league but that is no reason not to respect her choice of pronoun or to respect her as a human being

How much respect do you think Hannah has for her his female opponents that she he is almost killing in fights, and who she he is pushing out of their sport, because they cannot possibly win a fight against her him? Fuck all, I suggest.

If you are a women, your loyalties are totally misplaced.

If a person treats me with respect then I will treat them with respect.

I have no issue calling the physically transitioning adult TW that I know by her new name and preferred pronouns. I have no issue calling my teen dcs' non-transitioned TI friends by their new names and preferred pronouns. That is because they behave in the same courteous way to me. They do not expect me to move over for them, they do not tell me or dd how to 'woman'. (Or dh or ds how to 'man'.)

When, however, a TIM does not behave with the mutual respect that they expect from us, when a TIM makes no effort towards sisterhood, when a TIM rides roughshod over women and girls, then, no, they have not earned my courtesy and respect, and I will call them by the male pronoun that their male aggression and male privilege deserve.

Dinosaur I notice you said 'future daughters' in your post, so are you talking about girls who don't exist doing this?

Scattycharly I don't know what the official position on mumsnet is re male/female pronouns, perhaps you could report one of the relevant posts to find out.
I do know some people think it's wrong to force other people to use language incorrectly, ie use 'she' for a male, and vice versa. That's the thing really, you can't force people to believe that a man can transition to becoming a woman, or a woman to a man.
I suspect most people are polite in real life and use the preferred pronouns, but it's a different matter when it's being discussed on a less personal level such as a forum.
Personally I get round it by using they/them or their names, in cases where I don't believe they have genuine intentions, or have made no attempt to present as a women or change their lifestyle.

MNHQ used to delete 'misgendering' posts. Now they appear to recognise the fact that, for many posters, calling a male-bodied person by the female pronoun is also 'misgendering', and they allow it to stand unless MNHQ perceive it as a deliberate attack on the person and an attempt to be offensive.

Hygge that's an interesting post.
I am a black belt in judo. I spent six years as either the only girl or one of 2/3 girls from white belt. At fourteen I was competing in club with men some eight stone above what I was and years above in age and height.
I have to say mostly I held my own, certainly with those lower belt or equal belt to myself even when those boys had entered puberty.

The only time I have ever been hurt by a man was two occasions, one when throwing a lad who was several stone heavier with a throw that involved going down on my knee and I did it incorrectly and my now ex who kindly decided that slamming my head into the ground showing off was a good idea after I stopped for a second as I was knackered in a normal class.

I've also fought males in competition but weight categories with no issue but I do know that big competitions are gender split. So people like Hannah would be fighting other 15 stone women.
I stopped at 17 so not sure at which point I would have noticed a big difference in class.

Experienced my son's MA federation segregated all competition after age 8. Mixed sex could train together, including sparring, however there was a definite understanding that no one was to use excessive force. I've got to say, some of the instructors I've read about on here sound shocking. Training in martial arts is not an excuse to be violent, ever.

Oh yes noeffing I have seen coaches at competitions encouraging excessive force...

Husky, I think you may be mixing up Hannah Mouncy with Fallon Fox in your post above.

Yip, it’s just the testosterone levels that an issue.

This makes me so angry, and it is making me quite hostile to the trans cause. I am sympathetic to the plight of those with genuine gender dysphoria, and was previously happy to play along with the fallacy that 'he' can become 'she', but I am now thinking I will do the bare minimum required by law. I will certainly state openly my belief that transwomen are not, and never will be, women, and even if you are legally a women, with a GRC, biologically you are not, and never will be a woman. It is a legal fiction.

And this totally.

As to misgendering, I’m totally against being forced to use pronouns. If I meet a transperson and they are polite - I wouldn’t go out of my way to hurt or offend them but do we really want to be in a position where a rape or abuse victim is compelled to to call their rapist/abuser - she?

The Williams sisters failed to beat a man Karsten Braasch ranked 203rd and Connors beat Navratilova when she was the more highly ranked player.

Female golfers have not broken into the male tour despite trying
golftips.golfweek.com/lpga-women-played-pga-tour-20647.html

This is not because the women aren't good at their sport. There is a point beyond which skill alone cannot take you and physical strength becomes an issue. Top female sports people cannot beat lower ranked males when physical size and strength is the determining factor. When skill is the main factor e.g. equestrian sports as the physical strength is provided by the horse then men and women do compete equally.

As for the rugby playing teenage girl at he start of the thread. My 14 year old DS is nearly 6ft and a prop. I would not want to see him in a contest with a 14 year old girl even if she was the same height and weight. He is stronger and used to matching himself against boys of similar size and strength to himself. I think the risk to her would be unacceptable.

I struggle with gender at the best of times and the idea that women means someone who likes wearing dresses and make up or similar rather than someone with female biology frustrates me. I have spent years pushing against the stereotyped definitions of women (e.g. in the workplace) only to have people trying to force those definitions back on my whilst disregarding my biology.

If someone wants to present as the opposite sex in order to help cope with gender dysphoria and does so in a way that respects my experience as a biological woman I will absolutely support them in doing so. Just don't call me cis - I am a woman not a subset of woman.

I've just thought of another thing that's fucking me off.....crimes perpetrated by trans women, are simply recorded as crimes perpetrated by women....how the fuckety fuck is that acceptable?

Don't even get me started on that Husky it's outrageous. Why aren't they be recorded as crimes perpetrated by transwomen??? That is what they are afterall.

Sorry if im misinformed I seen a thread about this earlier and I was confused as people where talking about using same toilet and working with trans then I seen one about self id and was concerned about this I had no idea this was coming into law more people should be aware of this but what's the sport thing about? I think the threads can be muddled and people confuse what people are trying to say are you saying it's not against true trans people u don't have a problem with them but u do have a problem with self id and how that is going to massively effect all woman and men shouldn't be playing against women even if they are trans as they are still stronger and bigger essentially they are still male sorry I just would like to know as I'm Abit confused

The sport thing is that we are seeing a lot of Trans Identifying Male (TIM) athletes competing in women's sports. Inevitably they do well and displace women, because they have physical advantages- longer limbs, denser bones, stronger muscles.

So if a TIM decides to compete in your sport, it takes up a place that could have been taken by a woman, and risks injuring the women who compete with him.

You'll see references to Fallon Fox who broke bones and concussed his opponent in 2mins.
A TIM won a weightlifting championship in New Zealand.
The article at the beginning is about Australian Football.

I am really surprised this went this way given the physical nature of the sport.

I have played rugby for many years and am dreading this will happen in rugby too.

World Rugby currently prohibits mixed rugby after the age of 12 without parental consent and after 15 full stop on safety grounds. If these rules are changed based on the rights of trans individuals, it would be a very clear message that women's safety is less important than inclusivity.

G120810

One of the key issues for many of us with the trans debate is the focus on gender rather than sex as the defining characteristics of being male or female.

Gender, in simple terms, is the social rules and expectations around how males and females dress, interact, the types of jobs they do, the way they are expected to behave.

Sex is biology. e.g. XX chromosomes v XY chromosomes.

As a woman, I recognise that I cannot change my biology. I have a female body, I have been through female puberty and I have had 2 children.
However, I don't want to be forced to dress or act in a particular way because of my biology (other than where that biology requires). I don't wear make up very often, rarely wear dresses, enjoy watching sport etc. I don't want to conform to someone elses idea of what being female means.
If people are allowed to say they are effectively the opposite sex because of gender choices this can cause problems. The examples of sport are where men who have decided that they are female are able to compete against biological females. Someone who was born with male biology and has been through male puberty usually is bigger and stronger than females so the biological females cannot compete with them. Women are at times being endangered by having to face someone with male biology who has decided they are female (Fallon Fox for example).

Do you remember when we used to have Gok Wan lining up women of different sizes and asking his participant to put herself in where she felt she was sized correctly?

Does anyone have a friendly rugby club handy where this could be replicated? Compare the equivalent positions, and weight, height, reach, strength etc.

And/or add in (say) a male lock or prop - even a winger - to the female lineup and see how it stacks up.

I have played rugby for many years and am dreading this will happen in rugby too

It's already happening Situp

Here is a direct copy and paste from Scottish Rugby Union.....

"Scottish Rugby Union is committed to ensuring that rugby is a sport for all – without barriers, real or perceived. We welcome applications to play from trans-gender players and have set up an internal process in order to address such applications fairly and sensitively"

The English guidelines are the same.

I particularly draw your attention to the bit that says without barriers, real or perceived

How fucking terrifying.

Enjoy Rugby while you can.....

Hannah is built like a brick shithouse ffs! Of course she should not be allowed to play contact sport with women.

@Huskylover1 you're right.

However, at the moment it is done on a case by case basis with the physique of the player assessed to see if they are safe to play. I would worry that depending on the OC's final position, this may change.

My brother is totally puny for a man but whenever we have played for a laugh he has run rings round and hurt me a few times

I had an Ex who was puny. Short & skinny with tiny feet When he went for me, I was totally over powered. I tried fighting back, with all of my might, and it was utterly useless.

Goodness knows what it'd be like, going up against a big bloke. And a trained athlete at that.

Women will eventually be pushed out of sport.