'I don't shake women's hands'

[canary1]

In a work setting today, a client was seen by four colleagues, 2 male, 2 female. The client shook hands with the two male colleagues at the end, and when I held my hand out in expectation, this is what he said. I know many muslims and never ran into this before, though this is his reason. I'm disgusted at such overt sexism dressed up as religion. I can't say that's just his beliefs any more than I can excuse any other overt discriminatory behaviour. How is this regarded as an acceptable way to behave?

It's one culture thinking their practices are more important than another and expecting the other to accommodate or adapt, even on their home turf. It's impolite.

The ways that women are treated by different cultures all over the world - yep absolutely in Britain too - is why this and other distinctions based on sex can be problematic for women. Is that really so hard to see?!

I expect my Europoean relatives to respect the fact that I don't want to kiss them on each cheek. I'm not going to do something that makes me feel uncomfortable because it's customary, even if im in their home. Expecting a handshake is saying our culture is more important than his just because he is on 'our' turf. That is wrong.

Because you would be overstepping a boundary. In the case of the OP the Muslim redrew the boundary more conservatively.

Firstly, I thought we were not to sweat the small stuff. Secondly, he has re-drawn his boundaries based on the fact that I am a woman and I might draw him into temptation and I don't buy that.

I'm sure that you and I would agree on a great many things where it comes to the world of Islam, foreign policy, the UK's culpability in the current mess, etc - but this is wear hand-wringing liberals completely lose their way, in their quest for accommodation and multiculturalism.

This is not OK and it has no place in the UK.

Ok Loki - so where do you draw the line with that? Do you think that we should accept anything from any culture, even something like FGM?

Because everyone will draw that line differently, won't they?

I find this thread a bit confused. What we’re really talking about is not if a man can decide not to shake women’s hands but more what the etiquette should be.

I don't see it this way. I support anyone's right to not shake hands with women; I think the question is how does this fit into the British workplace.

Someone very early in the thread mentioned that the OP should have diversity training about Islam which left me and others a big agog, I think; I'm interested in what kind of diversity training non-Westerners should have when they take a job here in the UK.

The line is consent. The line is where it is harmful. Does it harm anyone not to shake hands? No. Does it harm anyone to mutilate their genitals? Yes. You are confusing a cultural niciety with a criminal act. The two are not comparable.

But does it harm anyone TO shake hands?

Consider these variation.

Is variable treatment of men and women harmful to women? Yes.

Is FGM harmful? No, it prevents women from becoming fully formed sexual beings, and therefore frees them to better serve God.

Except that the answer is yes. It has no baring on their sexual development, is highly painful and can lead to all manner of complications including death.

Your opinion is subjective, and there are obviously swathes of Muslims who disagree with you because the FGM rates in certain parts of Africa are nearly 100%, as you'll certainly know.

Why are you right and they're wrong?

Of course my opinion is subjective. Your opinion is subjective. It is an opinion, not a fact. Fortunately, we have laws that protect people from harmful practises like FGM. Why are you right and I am wrong?

Does it harm anyone not to shake hands? No.

Of course the lack of a handshake doesn’t cause physical harm but there can be insidious effects.

Women can be disadvantaged if they are left out of an introductory handshake in a meeting if all the men present do shake hands. A handshake makes an initial connection and those present are more likely to engage further with those with whom they haven shaken hands.

I notice that in the OP the handshakes actually occurred at the end of the meeting and it would certainly be enlightening to know if canary1 felt like a spare appendage throughout or if she was addressed directly by the client and he listened to and acknowledged her contributions.

Of course my opinion is subjective. Your opinion is subjective. It is an opinion, not a fact. Fortunately, we have laws that protect people from harmful practises like FGM. Why are you right and I am wrong?

My opinion, that women and men deserve equal treatment in the workplace, is enshrined in UK law. Yours is not.

Where the local customs and laws are different, I have and will continue to observe them.

How is respecting someone's right not to shake hands saying they do not deserve equal treatment in the work place? You can treat people equally without having to treat people the same. My family respect my boundaries not to be missed on each cheek but they kiss my brothers. We are still treated equally. Not everything is black and white. I'm having flashbacks of the episode of Friends where Chandlers boss hits everyone on the backside! This is what I do to everyone so you have to accept it even though it makes you uncomfortable. The ops treatment within the workplace boils down to much more than a handshake. If she were marginalised in the meeting and dismissed, I'd feel very much differently. However, the op was about a Muslim client not wanting to touch a female colleague. Not about how the op had felt sidlined and ignored because she was female. As I said in my first post, I think the wording 'I don't shake hands with women' was wrong. It us his issue, he ought to be polite and respectful about it.

I haven't read the full thread, but I think that if someone felt that any skin contact with a member of the opposite sex was a sexual thing, I wouldn't want them to shake my hand. Ie. I wouldn't want them to do a thing that they consider to be in the realm of sex things, with me.

I also know Muslim girls who don't shake hands or make other physical contact with adult males for the same reason.

According to the internet, the custom of shaking hands originated to show that neither party was holding a weapon.

May I tentatively suggest a solution to this tricky dilemma? Meet George, the businessman glove puppet. George is ready to be whisked out the handbag of the well-prepared businesswoman and slipped quickly over the hand. What man could refuse a handshake with George?

Haven't read the full thread this is a bit bizarre, what does he think is going to happen if he touches a woman's hand?!? Obviously he said it was for religious reasons, but to be honest I'd still find it offensive and feel that this aspect of his religion was sexist and offensive.

We need George!

Yes I've heard it before just a cultural thing I didn't think too much of it