'I don't shake women's hands'

[canary1]

In a work setting today, a client was seen by four colleagues, 2 male, 2 female. The client shook hands with the two male colleagues at the end, and when I held my hand out in expectation, this is what he said. I know many muslims and never ran into this before, though this is his reason. I'm disgusted at such overt sexism dressed up as religion. I can't say that's just his beliefs any more than I can excuse any other overt discriminatory behaviour. How is this regarded as an acceptable way to behave?

*You know, I am not a Muslim, but I am a woman. And I amashamedby some of the posts on this thread.

Religious hatred should be criminalised and disguising it as some sort of feminist issue is utterly odious*

This all day long.
I've been here many years. But am honestly contemplating leaving MN on the back of this thread. I honestly never realised I was involved in such a vile bunch of nastiness.
This place has literally kept me alive during my worst MH episodes. I can't imagine life without you all.
But this thread would put the DM to shame imo.
I am an ardent feminist. I've taken control for women in male dominated industries.
You simply can not use women's rights in this way. It a very ugly thing to do.

Religious hatred should be criminalised and disguising it as some sort of feminist issue is utterly odious This.
I still cant understand how a Muslim man not wanting to touch unrelated women is a sexist when Muslim women don't touch unrelated men. Nobody will explain it. And feeling offended because someone chooses not to touch you is actually a bit creepy.

It is sexist because it is based on the idea that touch will inflame the passions in the man and make him want to have sex with the woman.

Hatred of a religion is very different to hating individual religious people. I think the Catholic Church is evil, but I don't hate individual Catholics.

If you don't want to shake hands with one member of a group don't shake hands with any of them.

StatelessPrincess

I think you know full well the issue and are being deliberately obtuse.

It's a sign of respect in business to shake everybodies hand at a meeting. Some people however don't shake hands and that is also fine.

However it is extremely disrespectful to shake some people's hands and not others

In this instance that disrespect is based on the sex of the recipient. Just saying 'its my religion', (which we have already established earlier in this discussion that it isn't) doesn't excuse that.

Thinking about this more and - although I still think that the best solution would have been to not shake anyone’s hand - I think I would be OK with it, and more likely to attribute it to different cultural norms - if a man offered a different but equal greeting to men and women, rather than just saying he doesn’t shake hands with women.

Obviously I don’t know whether the man in the OP did try and do this, or whether there were other signs that the man did not think of the OP as an equal because she is a woman.

it is not 'disgraceful behaviour' it is normal for married men who come from eg Saudi.
Quite honestly OP should have done some diversity training.

Dullandold why can’t the man involved do some diversity training and stop being sexist?

Well, quite!

Sorry but this is where multiculturalism totally falls apart. We can't allow the less desirable tenants of Islam infiltrate UK workplaces any more than we can the less desirable tenants of Christianity (really, they're quite similar).

Bollocks to that.

You simply can not use women's rights in this way. It a very ugly thing to do.

In your opinion.

StatelessPrincess

And it would be equally sexist if a Muslim businesswomen refused to shake hands with anyone except other women at a mixed sex business meeting.

I still cant understand how a Muslim man not wanting to touch unrelated women is a sexist when Muslim women don't touch unrelated men. Nobody will explain it. And feeling offended because someone chooses not to touch you is actually a bit creepy.

Because it all rests on the segregation of sexes, which is largely facilitated by women making modifications for men, e.g. the hijab. No thanks.

And a recent court case about a state funded Muslim school that sex segregated, shows that legally sex segregation can in some circumstances be against the law.

Can anyone at all explain what there is in the Muslim faith that compels this man to shake hands with other men? Surely the whole question of discrimination could be avoided by a simple "no, I'm afraid I don't shake hands"?

Can anyone at all explain what there is in the Muslim faith that compels this man to shake hands with other men? Surely the whole question of discrimination could be avoided by a simple "no, I'm afraid I don't shake hands"?

This. No one will answer what the problem is with this compromise. And the same goes for women who don’t want to shake hands with men.

And feeling offended because someone chooses not to touch you is actually a bit creepy.

Ah, this is where you are clearly being deliberately obtuse. Because you’ve left out an important part.

Feeling offended because someone chooses not to touch you, because of your sex, in a situation where said form of touching is acceptable and expected, and is taking place between people of the same sex.

Feeling offended, or uncomfortable, or embarrassed because someone has singled you out for different treatment purely because of your sex is hardly unusual.

Can anyone at all explain what there is in the Muslim faith that compels this man to shake hands with other men?

I'm guessing they don't want to seem out of step with British workplace culture where it pertains to other men, and it's normal within Muslim culture to be demonstrative with other men.

I have seen much worse than this.
A middle eastern man had flown to the UK for a business meeting with my company. I was the only staff member who had direct management of the account. I was the only person capable of accurately answering his questions. I was dressed in a trouser suit and smart shirt. No offensive clothing.
He refused to talk to me, as I am a woman and he is a Muslim.
We ended up in a ridiculous scenario. A meeting with myself, and a random male colleague. He asked the random colleague (in English), who then asked me. I then had to respond via the male colleague.
It was bloody farcical!

It was a huge contract, so my company when out of their way to facilitate his behaviour.
I did, however, insist upon taking him for dinner that evening. As he was relying upon hospitality, he had no choice - other than fend for himself. Guess what he chose?
I took great pleasure in guiding him around the historic buildings in our town. He took a lot of photos, and actually listened to me. He even had to travel in my car, as a passenger!

Just shows the total hypocrisy, doesn't it?

OK. The thing is British society/education has been built on 'multiculturalism' where everyone's culture is equal.

As has been discussed multiple times, what you are suggesting is not multiculturalism and is actually anti-multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism is recognition that many cultures operate in this country and people of all cultures mutually respecting each other's cultures and reaching acceptable accommodations with each other.

Shaking nobody's hand is the acceptable solution to everybody here. It both accommodates his religious requirements and also meets the British requirement not to sexually discriminate and suits everybody.

It's people like you who are insisting only religion matters and others who have talking in terms of his values 'winning over' or 'trumping' others who are making statements incompatible with multiculturalism.

It’s a different boundary but to suggest we don’t treat men and women differently in the UK is ludicrous.

And I’m not.

Do you often stand with your back presented for a back slap (weird anyway) and the men say ‘actually, no. I’d rather not slap your back because you have ovaries.’

This is a situation where it is culturally normal to treat men and women the same. It is one of the situations where two cultures have different norms and values, and where it is not surprising for a woman who is accustomed to being treated equally to not enjoy being excluded because of her gender. And not creepy for her to feel that way, per the PP.

Equally it is not surprising that a Muslim wan may not want to shake hands with a woman.

There is a pretty easy fix. There are three things that cannot all happen at the same time. The one that should be ditched to enable the other two.

Unless we think that the western value of treating men and women equally is less important than the cultural practice of shaking hands in meetings.

Patriarchy & Jassy I'm not being deliberately being obtuse, I genuinely find it strange that people get upset about it. To me its just a different custom, like how in some cultures people bow instead of shaking hands, no big deal. I guess I'm a sexist now too as I'll continue to shake hands with women and not men. Seems a daft label to give someone who simply doesn't want to touch men.
Jassy I have given my opinion on the suggested compromise and why I wouldn't do it on this thread already I think.

Because it all rests on the segregation of sexes, which is largely facilitated by women making modifications for men, e.g. the hijab With the exception of hijab (which not all women wear anyway) I don't see that segregation is facilitated by women, I think it's equal, but that's just my experience.

Because it all rests on the segregation of sexes, which is largely facilitated by women making modifications for men, e.g. the hijab

With the exception of hijab (which not all women wear anyway) I don't see that segregation is facilitated by women, I think it's equal, but that's just my experience.

I went to a wedding in a conservative Muslim country. The women and men are separated, obviously - there are actually two receptions to be organised. 'Important' men e.g. the groom, bride's father, brothers, etc dropped in periodically to the women's wedding and they were announced and the women all covered and sat silently.

Also, women have to arrange chaperones to do certain activities.

I don't see the segregation as even remotely symmetrical.

Also, the men drove into the reception hall in Hummers - that was incredibly weird but probably irrelevant to the topic at hand.

There are various problems with the segregating approach and they are all to do with the underlying significance of gestures in the British workplace.

Shaking hands is what you do with your equals and superiors (but not normally with, say, the cleaner or the night porter, unless that is the job you are going for). It is what you do when reaching an agreement or ending a discussion.

Singling out one specific person to exclude from the handshake signals that you do not consider this particular person important enough to be part of the deal. This is almost bound to be seen as a slight towards that particular person.

Explaining that you don't shake hands at all otoh makes it about you, not about them, and therefore far more socially acceptable.

And there is nothing in Islamic faith that says you are obliged to protect yourself against feelings of arousal by rushing around shaking hands with any male you can get hold of. So you're absolutely safe on that score.

Win-win.

Stateless, of course it's offensive. I think you are being very obtuse in pretending not to understand that. I am a business woman. If I were in a business meeting where a colleague or client didn't shake hands with anybody then I wouldn't think twice about it. However if the colleague/client shook hands with men only and excluded me, then I am singled out and disrespected in the workplace on the basis of my sex alone. I would be very offended and I would also regard this as deliberate discrimination. I would immediately complain to my HR department and expect them to take action.

Happily this has not happened to me. There was an experience that I described upthread when a man declined to deal with me because I am female. My company quite rightly asserted that if he wouldn't deal with me then he wouldn't be dealt with by anyone else either. Suddenly he agreed to deal with me, female n all. Amazing eh!

I'm afraid you can argue until you are blue in the face about this scenario but you are simply wasting your breath and arguing against the lawful position in this country. Women are to be treated equally in the workplace. Declining to shake my hand while shaking that of my male colleagues is clear cut discrimination.