'I don't shake women's hands'

[canary1]

In a work setting today, a client was seen by four colleagues, 2 male, 2 female. The client shook hands with the two male colleagues at the end, and when I held my hand out in expectation, this is what he said. I know many muslims and never ran into this before, though this is his reason. I'm disgusted at such overt sexism dressed up as religion. I can't say that's just his beliefs any more than I can excuse any other overt discriminatory behaviour. How is this regarded as an acceptable way to behave?

Seems a daft label to give someone who simply doesn't want to touch men.

Given you don’t care about the impact of your choice on the men in question, and wouldn’t seek ways to limit their discomfort or embarrassment because of your choice, it seems pretty accurate to me.

Whizbang I'm not pretending anything, I just don't share your opinion, not interested in arguing my point anymore either. I used to work, I would frequently be in situations where I had to greet clients and this wasn't actually an issue, lots of people know about Muslims not shaking hands anyway so don't put their hand out.

MuseumOfCurry I don't think I've ever been to a wedding where men came to the women's area. I wouldn't be impressed. Been to plenty where people arrived in hummers though. I find mixed weddings really dull because I love dancing but don't dance in front of men.

This is one of those cultural clashes that arrived in England about ten or twenty years ago.

In some brands of Islam, it is wrong or offensive to shake hands, or to shake hands with a member of the opposite sex.

In English culture, to refuse to shake hands when it is offered is about as close as we get to a mortal insult and really very upsetting if you are not expecting it.

So, there is no shared culture here. When there is no shared culture or expectation you have to fall back on the law.

The legal position is that HE is perfectly entitled to refuse to shake hands, and YOU are perfectly entitled to point out POLITELY that it is normal in England to shake hands, and that for an English person to refuse to shake hands in such circumstances is extremely rude.

That's as far as it goes.

There is no remedy for this situation.

Hmm, that's interesting Stateless. Good that you're not arguing the point anymore though, because you are arguing contrary to UK law and for a position that I find very offensive in a business environment

There is very much a law in the UK that it is illegal to discriminate against women in the workplace. Which is what this is.

I hope you said - I don't do business with people who are afraid to shake my hand.

Haven't read the thread, sorry.

Shake nobody's hand - not discriminatory. Shake just the men's hands and refuse to shake the women's hands - clear discrimination. This has been explained in the clearest terms over and over in this thread.

Wendy, in the UK there are different grades of offence. Most people would agree that being singled out as the only person somebody will not shake hands with is far, far more offensive than somebody simply not shaking hands at all. There is a simple way of observing religious restrictions while at the same time avoiding the highest grade of offence and nobody has been able to explain as yet why a man (or woman) in this situation would not take it.

No one died.

No offence was intended - only taken.

Maybe just respect difference and get on with your lives?

Nope, sorry, not turning a blind eye to being singled out amongst my colleagues on the basis of my sex, however much you might wish that I would.

And when all the men go to the gents and you go to the ladies, do you feel upset?

I don't wish anything for you as you are a stranger on the internet. Its your choice how you behave. It isn't personal either - just putting another view.

In my work and social circle it would be considered rude to make a 'thing' out of something like this. It is polite and professional to make someone you are working with feel at ease - and that cuts both ways.

No one died.

That’s setting the bar for what’s it’s reasonable to question pretty high.

No offence was intended - only taken.

Grand. I’ll just drop these knitted golliwogs off to the school fete. I assure you I mean well.

(Hint: one of the fundamentals of good manners is thinking about the impact of your behaviour on other people, and trying to make it positive.)

(Hint: one of the fundamentals of good manners is thinking about the impact of your behaviour on other people, and trying to make it positive.)

Which cuts both ways.

The issue around golliwogs has been well-rehearsed and most people understand that it is offensive.

That is not the case here. Etiquette changes over time. Maybe there will be a consensus in the future that we will have no handshakes.

Context is important. In some industries people do air kisses as a matter of course, in others that would be considered OTT and intrusive.

No, the guy doesn't get to choose whose hand he touches. Shake everybody's hand or nobody's otherwise you are discriminating.

Dark...agree that it is professional to make everybody feel at ease. Therefore if you are uncomfortable with the contact, do t shake anybody's hand. It's simple. It is also rather worrying that in your professional circle the type of misogyny that you argue for is accepted. It can't be that professional an environment if the law of the land is ignored in this way and slights on professional women are overlooked. In my industry equality is very much in the spotlight. The type of behaviour described in the OP would be dealt with swiftly via HR. Perhaps that is why I have seldom encountered it...if it is tolerated then the offenders will persist.

Not shaking hands is offensive.

A "consensus" in the future that means dropping the British cultural practice, you mean...

I mean, not shaking hands with someone because the recipient is a woman/the other person is a muslim is offensive.

Which cuts both ways.

Yep, I wouldn’t expect or ask this guy to shake my hand, despite it being my cultural norm, and despite me being an atheist. There is an alternative available to me, as there is to him.

That alternative wouldn’t single me out as ‘non-touchable’ in the meeting; I wouldn’t be putting him in the position of asking him to do something he’s uncomfortable with. Of all the options, it feels the most equitable.

The issue around golliwogs has been well-rehearsed and most people understand that it is offensive.

That wasn’t your argument. Your argument was that it is intent, not effect, that matters.

But taking your statement on its face value, are you saying that it is likely people don’t realise they may cause embarrassment or upset by treating people differently based on sex in a business meeting? That seems quite unlikely.

When I got married, I had to go for a ‘chat’ with the Rabbis wife about what being a good Jewish wife involved. She refused to shake my hand when I greeted her! That was a bit of a surprise I can tell you. Not only was I not suitable to touch a Rabbi but his wife as well. It all seems pretty bonkers.

Things change. Many people in Britain now go to work or do business on a Sunday. People no longer wear hats. And women work on an equal basis to men (in theory), which is changing business etiquette. Not that long ago, men would have stood up every time a woman entered the room. And multiculturalism is changing things. It's a process.

And before you jump on my head, equal does not always mean 'the same'. The dress code is often different, for example.

*The issue around golliwogs has been well-rehearsed and most people understand that it is offensive.

That wasn’t your argument. Your argument was that it is intent, not effect, that matters.*

Err - in the context of the post, the poster knew perfectly well it was offensive, which is why they gave that example.

I was the poster. I was demonstrating how absurd your ‘intent is what matters’ argument is by taking it to its logical conclusion.

You’ve changed your tune to ‘if there’s a reasonable chance a person knows they may cause offence or upset, then they should avoid the behaviour’. Which is more logical. Do you think everyone in this meeting didn’t know those cultural norms?