'I don't shake women's hands'

[canary1]

In a work setting today, a client was seen by four colleagues, 2 male, 2 female. The client shook hands with the two male colleagues at the end, and when I held my hand out in expectation, this is what he said. I know many muslims and never ran into this before, though this is his reason. I'm disgusted at such overt sexism dressed up as religion. I can't say that's just his beliefs any more than I can excuse any other overt discriminatory behaviour. How is this regarded as an acceptable way to behave?

The disadvantage that I have seen first hand is when a client the person bringing money to the company shows any discomfort towards a member of the team the next meeting the member of the team will not be included. As a woman I have been excluded as I cannot possibly play golf, would be awkward to take to a certain type of bar and on religious respect for a client. Not offering the hand to women whilst offering to men would have been noticed by the senior member there, who may be more concerned about the males feelings (and money) than the women once again being “the other” in a work place.

Used to this living in the Gulf. It's normally preceded by a touch of their chest (where their heart is) a smile and a sort of head wobble. Not all Gulf nationals are like this, so I normally wait to see if a hand is proffered first. In my experience, the majority of men make a point of being the first to extend their hand.

I get it must be jarring to face this in the UK/West.

The traditional Muslim community have very segregated roles for women and men. It’s pretty difficult to argue that this isn’t subordination of women but I’m sure someone up thread will try to argue I’m wrong.

Similarly, other religions are inferior which is why there isn’t the integration you desired at school. It is not wanted and I’m afraid you and your children are deemed inferior.

I have experienced the same - exactly the same.

I would love to hear of a community operating effectively in this respect - rather than living side by side.

I noticed something similar at university, coming from a tiny rural town - our otherwise perfectly lovely Muslim flatmates simply didn't want to be friends with us. I was so dim that I kept trying and asking them to join us when we went shopping or to explore London - every time a polite no, and they just hung out with other Muslims in a huge gang.

We also had about 5 knocks on the door in the first week - "are there any Muslims in your flat, we want to start a Muslim reading group/running group/lunch club etc".

Eventually a flatmate who was from London and used to it from school said to me, "dude, they don't want to be your friend!"

Meanwhile it was crystal clear why - their parents would ring them several times a day (and we had no mobiles then, so we all heard it!), asking what they were doing, who they were with, what they were wearing, trying to make sure they were staying in and behaving at all times. They had to be back in the flat for goodnight phone calls to show they weren't out clubbing. One of the fathers of one of the girls in our flat even wrote to the university to ask if his daughter could be moved to an all-Muslim flat (the answer was no). The parental pressure was unreal

I thought it was such a shame - it made those girls miserable when they were 18 and had London in front of them to explore but their parents were still being so strict. Why let them see all that freedom but still try to control it so fiercely? Why drill into your children that they can only have friends who are like them?

However now I'm old I have a lot of Muslim friends from all different parts of the UK, none of whom behave like that with their children!

Tarragon, read boulshired's post. This is the real world

The traditional Muslim community have very segregated roles for women and men. It’s pretty difficult to argue that this isn’t subordination of women but I’m sure someone up thread will try to argue I’m wrong....
I would love to hear of a community operating effectively in this respect - rather than living side by side.

Mumsnet is a secular community for women in which male posters are regarded with suspicion. It is a largely separate space in which women discuss parenting, fashion, children, problems with discrimination at work, problematic marriages and domestic inequality and how women can be more free.

Its existence shows the degree to which we - in a supposedly free Western society - live lives that are fundamentally different to those led by men.

If someone doesn't want to shake hands then don't do it with anyone.
Any other behaviour is unacceptable.
This type of discrimination stops women from being involved in certain business deals.

You might as well put a sign up saying only those with a dick are allowed to play at high levels.

It's unacceptable.

I can certainly understand why some religious groups do not want to mix. Look at the few radial Christian sects like the Jehovah's witnesses and in the US some of the fundamentalist Mormon groups like the FLDS and others. Mixing means you might pick on bad (in the terms of those religions) habits like drinking or sex outside marriage. I used to joke I paid school fees and my sons were inculcated in London with the morals and sexism and homophobia of rural Pakistan (they had a lot of class mates with families from there) but I hope they and those boys learned a lot from each other (and the school certainly did not have those values at all). I am sure plenty of those families some of whom worked night and day to pay the fees to get their sons a better life specifically chose a non muslim school so their children could learn to live within or at least side by side with atheists and Christians.

Now that's interesting ZBIsabella when my DC left state primary for London Independent there was a wide demograph, there were Muslim/white couples too. There was much greater integration and parents, including Muslim women were educated professionals, and none of them isolated themselves. DS used to say that some of the Indian boys thought themselves superior but the others knocked it out of them - metaphorically. But they did that to the occasional ndigenous prig too.

Calledyou I'm interested to know why you think sex segregation subjugates women?
I've never thought of followers of other faiths (or atheists) as inferior to me, I judge people on their actions. Please don't tar us all with the same brush.

A Muslim woman worked for us once.
She wouldn’t shake men’s hands on religious grounds.

it is not 'disgraceful behaviour' it is normal for married men who come from eg Saudi.
Quite honestly OP should have done some diversity training.

Dullandold why can’t the man involved do some diversity training and stop being sexist?

because it's about respecting his religion.
Religious Muslim men don't shake women's hands ...it's as simple as that. No point in whining about 'sexism' in this case is there?

and as pigeon pointed out, religious Muslim women wont shake men's hands. Should they stop being 'sexist' too?

DullandOld All the people I have worked with who do not shake hands are British born.

Should they stop being 'sexist' too?

Yes.

In a situation with people not of that culture where handshaking is expected or likely to happen, people who won’t respect other cultures to the point where they say ‘hey, maybe it would be better not to shake anyone’s hand here to avoid upsetting or embarrassing anyone’ are not behaving in a spirit of mutual respect.

Respect is mutual. People should not expect respect for their own practices and values if they are not willing to make an effort to accommodate the practices and values of others, and seeking compromises where the two rub up against each other.

OK. The thing is British society/education has been built on 'multiculturalism' where everyone's culture is equal.

France did that thing where they teach kids from Martinique or Algeria or wherever about 'our ancestors the Gauls' with no room for other cultures.

It is a bit late to change, what 40 years? 50 years? of 'multiculturalism' (all cultures being equal' and suddenly say 'you now have to do things the British way', isn't it?

And yes some Asian, particularly those of rural Pakistan and Indian origin, do suffer under Islam. There is a world of difference between a family who have lived in Karachi, are well educated and professional; and a family who have come from a village in Kashmir.

Forced marriages, FGM, domestic abuse, honour being the women's role to uphold, marital rape, domestic slavery, women's movements being heavily controlled, financial abuse, and a deep community prohibition against divorce even when there is violence, are all issues that many of these women face.

In contrast an educated woman from Karachi may find that in Britain there is greater sexual harassment and inequality than they experienced in Pakistan.

Dullandold

It is sexism you can make all the excuses you like but he shook hands based on the two men having dicks and the woman not having a dick and that is sexist.

He may have a religion that says this and that, but we have laws in the uk and this man should learn to be tolerant and abide by those laws.

Everyone should try to be polite and kind to everyone else. I usually try to respect customs when abroad. However I do not agree that "respect" is always necessary or wise or morally right. Obviously we all pick our best moments to say things but some aspects of some religions are just plain wicked and wrong and damaging. It tends to be the extremists in most reilgions who are the worst.

I tend to be very careful to reflect people's beliefs and not to upset anyone if I can help it although sometimes I do step in - I never let a parent slap a child in front of me without objecting; I never let a taxi driver make a racist remark without at least saying not everyone holds that view, for example (and I've had the white racist taxi drivers and our local office - one from Afghanistan who is muslim who always asks if you are jewish before he launches into his anti semitic rant).

The thing is British society/education has been built on 'multiculturalism' where everyone's culture is equal.

How on earth is it unequal to suggest that when two people’s practices come into conflict, they find a mutually acceptable middle ground?

‘This is my culture. I don’t give a shit if it is at odds with your culture’s values of treating men and women equally’ is really just as bad as ‘This is my culture, I expect you to shake hands with everyone even if it is at odds with your cultural and religious values. It is a hell of a lot less equal and conducive to positive multiculturalism than ‘This is a bit difficult; maybe we can avoid the problem by not shaking hands. I know shaking hands is the culture norm, but that one is easy to compromise on in the interests of fulfilling the religious needs of x group and the desire by y group that men and women are treated equally.’

Shaking hands is not very important an issue and I am sure middle ground can be found. Other differecnes can be very important with no common ground and it being morally right to assert the superiority of one view against another - I am sure we can all find examples from the religious and non reilgious sides to illustrate that point.

If you can't offer a courtesy to everyone, offer it to no-one.
If your sexist beliefs translate into sexist actions in the workplace, you are discriminating.

You can't and shouldn't be compelled to touch another person, so the appropriate response is to touch no-one rather than single an entire sex out for demeaning treatment.