'I don't shake women's hands'

[canary1]

In a work setting today, a client was seen by four colleagues, 2 male, 2 female. The client shook hands with the two male colleagues at the end, and when I held my hand out in expectation, this is what he said. I know many muslims and never ran into this before, though this is his reason. I'm disgusted at such overt sexism dressed up as religion. I can't say that's just his beliefs any more than I can excuse any other overt discriminatory behaviour. How is this regarded as an acceptable way to behave?

OK, I'll ask a question. When my dc were at primary (a cofe school and very oversubscribed) lots of Muslims including the Imam sent their children there. The mosque was 200 yards away so children got in on the 40% open places.

The Muslim families refused to mix. Didn't RSVP to invitations. Kept their children ftom school on end of term church srrvice days yet our DC visted the mosque as part of the multi cultural faith initiative, and the synahogue, buddhist temple, sikh temple. The Muslim children didn't.

The Muslim mothers stood together at home time. They would not acknowledge other parents, did not participate in fund raisers or PTA events.

I have never understood why. We made so much effort to try to include them and their children.

Can you explain please. Therecwas a good secular school just up the road but it's rsults were less good. I couldn't understand why the Muslim children were sent to the cofe school (except for its academic rigour) when theyvweten't allowed to participate in its ethos and their parents would mot participate in the school's community.

It's a genuine question Butterflies I'vecalways wondered what was going on.

Hi RaindropsandSparkles,

We currently have the same issues here, where I'm located. I'm not sure what the underlying issues regarding the lack of social interaction is?

The school my DS is at has similar sort of setbacks. We try to integrate all communities, have tried to hold different functions throughout the academic year to engage everyone, although the turn out is good, when it comes to PTA there's hardly any input unfortunately.

I think language may be a barrier in communicating effectively? A lot of the ladies who were born in England, and studied here, they have no problem talking/mixing with everyone.

What does he think will happen if he shakes a woman's hand? That she will be so overcome with lust she will have to have sex with him ? Ridiculous and primitive thinking .

Some Muslims believe that Muslims should not be friends with non Muslims.

islamqa.info/en/174574

I say some because Islam is like Christianity, there are many difference sects, although two main branches.

Also many children will be attending religious and cultural studies after school and on Saturdays.

*RaindropsAndSparkles Fri 09-Feb-18 23:09:15
OK, I'll ask a question. When my dc were at primary (a cofe school and very oversubscribed) lots of Muslims including the Imam sent their children there. The mosque was 200 yards away so children got in on the 40% open places.

The Muslim families refused to mix. Didn't RSVP to invitations. Kept their children ftom school on end of term church srrvice days yet our DC visted the mosque as part of the multi cultural faith initiative, and the synahogue, buddhist temple, sikh temple. The Muslim children didn't.

The Muslim mothers stood together at home time. They would not acknowledge other parents, did not participate in fund raisers or PTA events.

I have never understood why. We made so much effort to try to include them and their children.*

And yet at the opposite end of the scale the muslims I work with try best to be involved - reciprocating Christmas cards, watching the choir service that schools give at Christmas - I guess we obviously have to take our opinions on what we've experienced.

Can I ask those who are insulted at the man not wanting to shake hands with a woman (because of his belief, nobody elses). Would you force yourself as a woman to hug a man/kiss on both cheeks on greeting such as in France if it made you uncomfortable because of sexual abuse for example? Or just because you really don't like it? But because it's the norm in France to greet with kisses on the cheek it's consider rude and you should get with the tradition?

Bollix

tiddle The issue I have seen is not about exchanging xmas cards or attending school events. It is about Muslim children not socialising outside of school with non Muslim kids. So not going to parties, playdates, etc. That is not bollocks. Of course it does not apply to all Muslims. Islam has different sects. But it does apply to enough to be an issue.

Crunchy I really haven't experienced that and obviously am just going on what I've experienced.

You see even in your comment above 'its about Muslim children not socialising' you've grouped a whole religion in a few words.

And to me it is bollix because I've never seen that.

Have you read my link I posted upthread? Some Muslims do believe that Muslims should not have non Muslim friends. It is directly above your second to last comment and takes you to a religious source.
And as I have said in that comment, just like Christianity, Islam has many branches. So not all Muslims believe the same thing about Islam.

A different religious interpretation where Muslims can be friends with non Muslims,but should choose friends who behave appropriately.

islam.stackexchange.com/questions/225/is-it-haraam-to-have-non-muslim-friends

Certainly I would have thought most Muslims would want to know a non Muslim's family are "respectable" before allowing any friendship outside of school.

tiddlewinklewoo but I don't have any issues kissinv on both cheeks in France. I also do 't think it links with child abuse for thebvast majority of people. Are you suggesting Muslim msn were abused as children and that is why they can't shake ha ds with women? I think that syrays into very dodgy territory - especially in the North.

I would assert thst the non muslim children at my dc's school were every bit as respectable as the muslim children's families. Mostly professional people inluding the local vicar's family. How would the Muslim families have found out if they didn't have the basic courtesy to greet.

I just want to say - I've lived in a Muslim country for several years now. I'm a teacher, and on parents' evening the Muslim fathers shake hands with me without issue.

The only place I've encountered the no-hand shaking thing was in South London.

RaindropsandSparkling I am not agreeing with it, just explaining there is a religious aspect as well as all the barriers of language and religious schools.

crunchymint Sat 10-Feb-18 00:02:11
Certainly I would have thought most Muslims would want to know a non Muslim's family are "respectable" before allowing any friendship outside of school.

But crunchy we can only go on our experiences - yes your's is negative, mine is the opposite so I absolutely disagree with the rabid feminazi latching onto this and making out it was a 'woman thing'

It isn't IME - The junior doctor who recoiled when I went to hug him wasn't being rude - he was sticking to HIS belief. And threw his hands in the air and said apologies it's allah! Making a joke of it.

How bloody dare we make people do something their uncomfortable with - for whatever reason - there is never a reason.

Indeed. South London.

Whatever individuals thoughts, the concept that it is wrong to shake the hand of the opposite sex is at root based on misogyny. Some individuals may just see it as their religious faith, but the whole concept is based on misogyny.

Can I ask those who are insulted at the man not wanting to shake hands with a woman (because of his belief, nobody elses). Would you force yourself as a woman to hug a man/kiss on both cheeks on greeting such as in France if it made you uncomfortable because of sexual abuse for example? Or just because you really don't like it? But because it's the norm in France to greet with kisses on the cheek it's consider rude and you should get with the tradition?

No I wouldn't force myself.

I'd say "I don't kiss at greeting" but I would say it generally meaning it applies to men and women. I wouldn't single out just men and kiss women.

How bloody dare we make people do something their uncomfortable with - for whatever reason - there is never a reason.

Aside from the fact that there is the option of not shaking anybody's hand instead - where do you draw the line on this?

If somebody says they don't feel comfortable talking to Muslims or greeting them or spending time with them are you okay with that? Or Jews, or gays, or black people?

Because if people shouldn't have to do things which make them feel uncomfortable then by that logic you should be fine with that.

I think what you actually mean is people shouldn't have to do things which make them uncomfortable as long as you approve of it.

Misogyny or just downright bad manners and failure to respect the host culture where the people might not be respectable enough. The Muslim families at that little school who would not mix were not professional people, they were not living well. The Muslim families who were professional, were fairly westernisrd and not influenced by the mosque so much and did mix.

There's an awful lot of talk about 'discrimination' here, which is a load of nonsense. You could argue the man is revealing misogyny, or is sexist (equally you could argue there is a different explanation) but he hasn't treated the OP unfairly. Not shaking hands with her hasn't actually disadvantaged her.

Also, not 100% the same, but old-fashioned British manners would suggest a man should not offer to shake a woman's hand, but wait for her to offer her hand to him, to avoid pressuring her to touch him if she doesn't wish to.

Raindropsandsparkles My old Minister (retired now) used to write supporting letters for CofE type schools. It wasn't a CofE church but the two most sought after schools in the area (both primary and secondary) were CofE. The only requirement the Minister was expected to follow was to tell the intended school that 'Timmy had been attending a place of worship for x months' and this was sufficient. This covered all bases so to speak. I've no idea if its still the same now. The faith schools here are that oversubscribed the Queen herself wouldn't stand a chance of getting her great-grandchildren in. I know because the DCs Dad goes to Mass every week. He hasn't seen most of the parents there since what he aptly calls admissions season.

Tarragon - How can you sat she wasn't disadvantaged? Of course she was, she was treated differently because she was a woman. If it momentarily caused awkwardness or embarrassment then she was disadvantaged. Had he been thoughtful and professional he would not have shaken anyone's hand and so treating all equally.

The religious aspect is nothing to do with putting women down, or sexism or anything of the kind.

The action though is sexist, regardless of why it’s done, leaving out a person due to their gender is plain wrong and nothing excuses this behaviour