'I don't shake women's hands'

[canary1]

In a work setting today, a client was seen by four colleagues, 2 male, 2 female. The client shook hands with the two male colleagues at the end, and when I held my hand out in expectation, this is what he said. I know many muslims and never ran into this before, though this is his reason. I'm disgusted at such overt sexism dressed up as religion. I can't say that's just his beliefs any more than I can excuse any other overt discriminatory behaviour. How is this regarded as an acceptable way to behave?

I haven't changed my tune. Why would a Muslim person think that a polite bow, for example, is not as good as a handshake? I would be fine with that and so would lots of other people.

Then evrryone should be happy with a polite bow. Not just the women.

Actually if ever I'm in a work meeting and an Asian man refuses to shake my hand I'm ready. I'm just going to exclaim very good humouredly that I'm flattered he thinks an old trout like me might set his loins tingling if our hands touch .

In Japan I've bowed and stepped back. In Greece I've coverrd my head in an orthodox church, in Sarf London I've done a high five. I have always compromised. Why doesn't compromise work both ways as far as Muslim men are concerned.

Because it's a refusal to accept the culture and practices of the country that you're in. That's why.

It's really not difficult.

You'd expect Brits to conform in a Muslim country, as they damn well should. So why not extend the courtesy both ways?

Why would a Muslim person think that a polite bow, for example, is not as good as a handshake? I would be fine with that and so would lots of other people.

I would hope so. Wonder why the man in question didn’t do that with the people in his meeting, instead of singling out the woman there for treatment different from everyone else?

but zzzz there is nothing expressly forbidding a Muslim man not to shake hands with other men

and in most British workplaces avoiding handshaking altogether would seem far more polite to everybody than to exclude individual staff

so what exactly is stopping somebody from just eschewing handshakes?

It's a fair bet it would seem more polite to most women and men whose client he was. So, as this route does not cause any moral conflict to him, and is almost certainly going to be considered more polite by the people he is dealing with, it might be a good idea to take it.

I am an immigrant here myself. There are things I could not conform to because they go against my own moral and religious convictions. But I do consider it my duty to find out what the established norm is and then to conform whenever I can do so without compromising my convictions. And if something does go against my convictions, I look around for the response that is going to be the least offensive to the people I am dealing with. This was not it.

It wasn't that long ago that in the UK it was considered polite for men to open doors for women and to give up their seats on a train. And not long before that it was normal for a man to raise their hat to a lady. It would seem anachronistic and old fashioned to do that now, but it's within a generation.

It’s not a case of being impolite, this person picked out the opposite gender and deliberately refused a gesture that they had just performed with their own gender. It’s a sexist move. You can keep dressing it up and excusing it but the act is illegal in the uk and really until this illegal behaviour is brought to task and punished it will continue.

Someone upthread said they were leaving MN due to “religious hatred”.

Is questioning the basic principles of any religion “hatred”? Surely all belief systems should be open to scrutiny. I’m not a massive fan of any of the mainstream religions but islam’s view on women has produced some very sad results in our society.

Is this discussion “hatred” or just cessation of debate?

ADarkandStormyNight. It's still condidered polite to hold open a doir and offer a seat. Except that women do it tpp nowadays. You just brought a tear to my eye as I remembered my grandfather raising his hat. So few men wear hats niwadays.

My DH still walks on the outside of the pavement when with me or dd. A far cry from the three Muslim men walking towards me from the mosque who refused to break step to let me pass - purposefully trying to force me into the road. I just stopped in front of them and forced them to walk round me. I complained to the imam and his assistant (an Austrian gentleman) ame to see me and explained it was the behaviour of a certain type of gentleman from Pakistan and apologised. Clearly not behaviour that merits the name gentleman and there was too much of that sort of behaviour.

Not forgetting the failure to respect people's driveways or the arrogance of trying to illegally divert traffic from the public highway using high viz jackets and their own signs. The conversion of five houses into offices and meeting rooms without paying business rates, etc.

Now what was there motto. "Love for All, Hatred for none." In order to maintain that it is a shamecso little respect was affirded to lical people.

I walk last a Pakistani man and his wife on the school run. She is fully covered in black robes, even on the hottest days. She walks a good 3 metres behind him.

It makes me seeth every time and if this is liberalism and “progress” and something I need to respect then the world has gone mad. Only on Mn is this seen as a”good thing” and the rest of us cry for that woman.

No one is saying that sort of behaviour is 'good'!

Christian and atheist men do awful things to women as well. Religion can be a cover for some particularly terrible abuses.

But that's not what we are talking about here. This is about people with different cultural references finding a way through an awkward point of etiquette.

Personally I think this is a case of 'don't sweat the small stuff'.

I think it's an analogy with look acter the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.

In fact i have remembered a situation in reverse to the op's. Interview panel, two women one man. A female candidate came in and shook hands with me and me female colleague, refusing my male colleagues. He was surprised.

Had she entered touched her heart and bowed I am sure we'd have thought it appropriate and charming. Is nobody teaching people basic manners in these communities?

She didn't get the job btw because her in-tray test did not demonstrate sufficient admin/prioritising skills.

Sorry off topic but I would like to ask something of Muslims on this thread. I grew up in a very multi cultural area, I went to school with many Muslim girls, the Imam used to come in every Friday to do a special assembly for them. They all wore our school uniform, I can't remember any of the mothers coming into school in black robes, they generally wore salwar kameez in bright colours and would have a long scarf that would be over their heads but loose and with hair showing. Do we have different branches of Islam now that are interpreting their religion differently, were Muslims compromising their beliefs then to "fit in" or is it something else? The Muslim girls I knew were mainly of Pakistani origin, one was Turkish.

I should say I am talking about the 50s and 60s, there was a small mosque in the road where I lived and a large mosque maybe 10 minutes walk away so I saw lots of Muslim women on a daily basis.

But that's not what we are talking about here. This is about people with different cultural references finding a way through an awkward point of etiquette.

Personally I think this is a case of 'don't sweat the small stuff'

OK, so the Muslim men I meet in conservative countries should be fine and happy with me kissing both their cheeks when I say hello, as I do here? In the interest of not sweating the small stuff?

Of course, it's quite possible I'd have to barge into the men's area in order to do this in the first instance.

I think he's wording is the only issue here. If he'd have said 'in my culture, men and women are not permitted to shake hands, it was a pleasure meeting/doing business with you' then it would have reassured you it was his issue, not yours (e.g. because you are a women). He has the right not to shake your hand. In some cultures, kissing between strangers is normal. I'd like to think of have the right to say no without people getting offended.

And I'd like to point out that the vast majority of Muslims that I know (a lot - I married into a Muslim family) would be fucking mortified by a man doing what the OP describes.

OK, so the Muslim men I meet in conservative countries should be fine and happy with me kissing both their cheeks when I say hello, as I do here?

That's not comparable.

Why?

Loki I agree.

Because you would be overstepping a boundary. In the case of the OP the Muslim redrew the boundary more conservatively.

I agree with grannytomime. Why have things become so marked.