About School and detention?

[Recallclock]

Prepared to be flamed.

Dd has sen and is according to schools own safeguarding team 'vulnerable'
Because of bullying and lack of options when we moved her her new school is out of Borough.

There has been a few times she has been kept back as a whole class detention because someone else wouldn't shut up talking and missed her connecting bus and got home very late leaving her waiting forty minutes alone at a bus stop and walking through the door at 6.30pm. (her school finished at 4.10pm but even keeping them back twenty minutes means she misses her commenting bus.)

I had a lot of involvement with the old senco who was brilliant and was in contact regularly but a new one has started and I have little involvement with her however I spoke to her on the advice of Mumsnet and asked for dd to be not kept back if she had not been involved due to her issues getting home and if she had to be given recall for herself if it could be done at lunch or if it had to be after school with notice so I could sort collection. She's never had individual recall.

I have just had a phone call now to say she is being kept back tonight as she hasn't done her homework. I'm not impressed she has not done her homework (she does have organisation issues as part of her sen) but she's not done it so fair enough.
I'm miles away with no car and can't get hold of my Dad to get her so my sen child will be on detention until 5pm and isn't likely to walk through the door until 7pm.
She also doesn't know the buses at other times so is going to be in a right state.

Aibu to have expected them to give a sen child 24 hours notice particularly when I have asked and they agreed or keep her in at lunch?

Both my previous schools did same day detentions, and both were able to accommodate for vulnerable children. Speak to whoever on SLT has responsibility for inclusion.

I wouldn't ignore it. I would phone and ask to speak to you, and failing you the head of year or one of the SLT, explain that my 11yo child would have no means of getting home in the dark, express my total support for the sanction itself and request that it be carried out on a different day to enable me to make safe arrangements for my child to get home. I would put this in writing and cc it to the Head.

If you decided to stand on your precious authority as a teacher (I am one, and I still can't believe how unbelievable petty and territorial some teachers are) then I would make a formal complaint to the LA on safeguarding grounds. If you offered a period in isolation as an alternative to the detention, then we would happily accept it.

I have had a similar battle with a school in the past and the outcome was favourable, as they usually are if parents keep calm and stick to their guns.

Pengggwn

This might be off topic (so apologises OP if it is) but is this not a similar arguement to teachers legally being able to say no to pupils going to the toilet?
I've always told my children that if they are really busting and the teacher has previously said no when they have put their hand up then they can go up to the desk and TELL not ask the teacher that they are going to the toilet, I get why the teacher can and does say no but I think sometimes acceptions need to be made. I will not allow my child to be in pain, have the risk of physical damage or wet themselves in front of a class of 30 children which would be exrememly mentally distressing. We would deal with the consequence of them disobeying the teacher after which would probably mean me putting them in a different school.
Similarly I would tell my children if they were ever given a no notice detention that for whatever reason means they are going to be abondoned outisde the school in the dark with no safe way of getting home that they are able to disobey the teacher and come home safely at normal time, we would then have to deal with the consequences of this after.

I don't see how this has anything to do with SEN. She shouldn't be kept behind if it means she has to wait 40 minutes at a bus stop somewhere, SEN or no SEN. They should give all children 24 hours notice so that their parents can ensure they reach home safely.

The concept you're not getting, Pengggwyn, is "safeguarding". An 11yo child being sent out in the dark with no means of getting home is not safe. If the teacher/Head were so monumentally stupid and pigheaded as to insist on that scenario being played out, then the parent would be entirely within their rights to refuse to comply with it, and the LA would support the parent. it happens all the time. Heads, as a rule, know that "school policies" are essentially toothless and if parents complain on perfectly rational and valid grounds, the policy doesn't trump the child's basic welfare. I have had these battles and won them, many times. And not always in connection with my child's SEN - sometimes it is simply, a stupid unworkable policy that puts children at risk. And poliicies can, and do, change.

Pengggwn

You would rather a child wet themselves than make an acception?

Again on the toilet issue - some teachers are jobsworths and prefer to simply apply the letter of the policy, unburdened by complications of common sense and common decency. Others are a little more invested in their students' welfare and learning and use their judgement.

Just tell school no after school detentions, it’s called ‘reasonable adjustments’ for pupils with SEN, not special treatment at all.

longer than that should have 24 hours notice

Not anymore (blame Gove).

It’s the Law!

Here you are OP: from the DfE Behaviour Guidance :

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/488034/Behaviour_and_Discipline_in_Schools_-_A_guide_for_headteachers_and_School_Staff.pdf

Below is an extract about detentions - as you can see, safeguarding quite rightly trumps the power to give a detention EVERY SINGLE TIME, especially for SEN children.
Detentions outside school hours
34. School staff should not issue a detention where they know that doing so would compromise a child's safety. When ensuring that a detention outside school hours is reasonable, staff issuing the detention should consider the following points:
• Whether the detention is likely to put the pupil at risk.
• Whether the pupil has known caring responsibilities which mean that the detention is unreasonable.
• Whether the parents ought to be informed of the detention. In many cases it will be necessary to do so, but this will depend on the circumstances. For instance, notice may not be necessary for a short after school detention where the pupil can get home safely; and
• Whether suitable travel arrangements can be made by the parent for the pupil. It does not matter if making these arrangements is inconvenient for the parent

Any decision made by a school needs to be 'reasonable'. I would suggest it is clearly unreasonable to hand out a detention to a vulnerable child on the same day with notification at 2.00pm.
That is unreasonable and it is the school (not the parent who with such short notice may not be able to get to the child) who is being unreasonable (says after decades of setting detentions and knowing the law).

My ds has Sen and autism.

His school agree that a "on the day" detention is not suitable for him as it causes stress and he is vulnerable and can't travel alone. (He can't use public transport due to anxiety so I collect him)

I'd email as it leaves a paper trail.

The only difficulty you may have is that she has managed to get home when this has happened.

Where a parent challenged the policy on safeguarding grounds, and you stood on your authority and refused to compromise, you would lose.

whether suitable travel arrangements can be made by the parent. If they can't, the pupil would be at risk. So the policy would be unlawful. As has been proven many many times by parents who have successfully challenged it.

Of course, it's ridiculous that any parent should have to go through this battle. Any teacher who would send a child out in the dark with no means of getting home, because it's "school policy" and who cares what happens to them, is a negligent arsehole who has no business serving chips to children, never mind teaching them

If said child had missed the last bus because of after-school detention, and the family had no spare money for taxis and nobody else to call on for a lift, then yes, there would be a valid safeguarding objection and the school policy would be void.

Pengggwn

Do you have DC of your own? If so how would you approach theese issues with them ? (or even imagining you did).
Would you tell them that they must remain in the classroom even if that means wetting themselves if the teacher has said no? Or would you allow them to leave to avoid this?
Would you tell them they can not go to the detention tonight to ensure they got home safely because there was for whatever reason absolutely no other way of aranging safe alternative transport home after the detention?
I used to be a dance teacher but have never worked in a school and also have my own DC, I know for both my DC and other DC in my care despite what rights I have in regards to punishing them I would always prioritise their welfare over my right to punish, say no etc.

Well you would hate my child then as she has a toilet pass too.

I would email the SENCO about this and get the matter clarified, if the teacher ignored the SENCO I'd escalate to the head of year/department.

Also if your DD has completed the worksheet already that makes the whole saga even worse.

I don't know any decent rural school that uses after school detention. It's too problematic with school transport. All of the rural schools I worked in used lunchtime detentions the next day instead.

Repeats the word reasonable. A school would lose if it tried to argue that a 2.00pm notification about an after school detention for a child with SEN who travels home by transport is 'reasonable'.
Teachers can and do dig their heels in and argue the toss but a complaint of this nature would (if pursued) always win as a school could offer a detention the following day that would be a 'reasonable adjustment' in the light of the SEN. Honestly I've been involved in ombudsman's cases, complaints involving solicitors and all sorts and as long as the school can demonstrate that they have made reasonable adjustments, they will win. 95 minutes notice of a detention at the end of the day in these circumstances is not reasonable.