About School and detention?

[Recallclock]

Prepared to be flamed.

Dd has sen and is according to schools own safeguarding team 'vulnerable'
Because of bullying and lack of options when we moved her her new school is out of Borough.

There has been a few times she has been kept back as a whole class detention because someone else wouldn't shut up talking and missed her connecting bus and got home very late leaving her waiting forty minutes alone at a bus stop and walking through the door at 6.30pm. (her school finished at 4.10pm but even keeping them back twenty minutes means she misses her commenting bus.)

I had a lot of involvement with the old senco who was brilliant and was in contact regularly but a new one has started and I have little involvement with her however I spoke to her on the advice of Mumsnet and asked for dd to be not kept back if she had not been involved due to her issues getting home and if she had to be given recall for herself if it could be done at lunch or if it had to be after school with notice so I could sort collection. She's never had individual recall.

I have just had a phone call now to say she is being kept back tonight as she hasn't done her homework. I'm not impressed she has not done her homework (she does have organisation issues as part of her sen) but she's not done it so fair enough.
I'm miles away with no car and can't get hold of my Dad to get her so my sen child will be on detention until 5pm and isn't likely to walk through the door until 7pm.
She also doesn't know the buses at other times so is going to be in a right state.

Aibu to have expected them to give a sen child 24 hours notice particularly when I have asked and they agreed or keep her in at lunch?

[youarenotkiddingme]

As I say on most school threads you were an amazing help to me once and I got something sorted in a day. Job done!

My friend challenged her DDs secondary who refuse phones being taken into school (don't anymore!) but always did on the day detentions.
She basically said they need to do one or the other or they'll have children not turning up home as expected and uncontactable - creating unnecessary risk and panic!
HT started off being a bit "peng like".

[rowdywoman1]

MaisyPops.
Not at all. Good teachers use every strategy going! It's like counting down from 10 - you know you're never going to get to 1 because you won't let it happen - but it doesn't stop you using it.

[isadoradancing123]

I think notice should always be given if children are going to miss their transport

[Recallclock]

I agree Maisy you sound a great teacher.

[melj1213]

Why should your paid for activities trump your child's punishment?

Why does the school's decision to keep my child after the final bell unilaterally always trump my decision to not be inconvenienced without any notice, regardless of whether it's due to previous commitments, clubs, appointments, caring responsibilities or other factors?

Yes I am responsible for my child getting home, but that is usually based on the fact they are leaving school at a pre-arranged time and so any transport arrangements can be made based on that. If you tell me today that my child will be staying late tomorrow I can factor that in - either arranging for them to be collected either by myself or someone else, ensuring they know the bus times/where to get the local bus/which bus to get on, arranging a taxi to collect them and ensuring they have enough money for bus/taxi fare. If you tell me that my child will be staying the same day then I cannot retroactively put those arrangements in place.

In another thread recently you advocated that if I wanted to speak to a headteacher I should make an appointment as they cannot be expected to drop everything because I want to see them, so why is this courtesy not applied to the students as well, Peng?

My DD attends many after school clubs, some run by the school, some run by outside companies on school grounds and some by outside companies at venues outside the school. One of the nights I work late so I have an arrangement with another parent that she picks up my DD, takes her home to the other side of town and makes them both tea before dropping them at their dance class together. When I finish work, I pick both girls up and drop DD's friend off at home.

Admittedly my DD is only 9 so it's slightly different to a secondary student, but a no-notice detention not only affects me but also other people. The whole reason for our arrangement is because I don't finish work until 8pm and I know my DD is both being looked after and also has transport from school and to her club. If DD was in detention then I would have to either expect the other parent to hang around to take her home or I'd have to leave work 3/4 hours early to collect her as she would have no other way of getting home (or to her club) as she doesn't take a phone or money to school as she doesn't need them. If I knew the previous day that she would be serving detention, I could put alternative arrangements in place, including informing the other parent and her dance class that she may not be attending.

[Lovesprideandprejudice]

Does your child go to a special school? If not, the rules and policies have to be applied equally and fairly. As unfair as this may seem to you, you’ve chosen a school and you have to accept the policies of that School. It is very hard for children in comprehensive schools to be given special treatment. It causes real upset and resentment in the community.

[rowdywoman1]

Pengggwn
Actually parents sign up to particular schools in the expectation the schools will follow the law, support their staff so that they are able to provide a safe, high quality education, to inspire children to learn and to manage discipline proportionately and in a non discriminatory way.
It's a partnership and good schools manage this well. Poor schools and bad teachers manage to alienate children and their parents and often resort to implementing petty rules and setting up confrontational relationships rather than fulfilling their core purpose. It's sad to see.

[rowdywoman1]

Lovesprideandprejudice
Sorry but that's not correct.
All schools have to make 'reasonable adjustments' for specific children. In behaviour terms, the government guidance referenced above explains how.

[fleshmarketclose]

Lovespride being fair to all students doesn't mean treating them all the same. If there are SEN and disabilities then schools are legally obliged to make every reasonable adjustment needed regardless of their policies. If in secondary school a pupil has no understanding of others having different abilities and needs and an understanding and compassion for those less able than themselves then they have been and are being failed by their parents and the school and this should be addressed rather than evading the school's legal obligations.

[TinaMena]

If not, the rules and policies have to be applied equally and fairly.
If rules are applied equally, by definition they are not being applied fairly, as different children have different needs, for which adjustments need to be made. If all children were the same, with the same arrangements for getting home, then giving them all the same punishments are equal and fair

[TinaMena]

Because that's the arrangement you sign up to if you send your child to school.
And what's stopping anyone from altering an agreement after a child has started school?

[melj1213]

Because that's the arrangement you sign up to if you send your child to school.

Actually I send my child to school to be educated between the hours of 9am and 3:30pm Monday to Friday during term time. The school has zero rights to my (or my child's) time outside of those hours.

So I'll ask again, why does the school's decision to punish my child outside of school hours trump any other commitment regardless of what it is?

[TinaMena]

because the parent won't arrange for transport
How would a school react if one of their staff just upped and left because a school their child attended was being draconian?

[JenniferYellowHat1980]

I have never worked in a school that gives fewer than 24 hours' notice of an after school detention (nearly always a consequence of missing or repeated break time detentions). Neither have I worked in a school in which whole class detentions are acceptable. That said, I left teaching because of behaviour.

[TinaMena]

decision becomes whether or not to change schools.
I can just instruct my child to refuse to attend detention. The decision can then be up to the school what happens next. If the school wants to be unreasonable, so can I. And suppose it was a school I didn't choose for my child to attend?

[Shedmicehugh]

“And those expectations are not inconsistent with a clearly set out policy of after school detentions for specific behaviours, at the point of reading which the parents have a choice of whether or not to send their child to that school”

The whole point of ‘reasonable adjustments’ is that changes can be made to school policies.

“The Act says that a pupil has a disability if he or she has a physical or mental impairment that has a long-term and substantial adverse effect on his or her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities”

This can include detentions and homework!

[upsideup]

Pengggwn

'Wont' arrange transport? We're talking about when parents CAN'T arrange transport.
Teachers and parents need to work together, usually the parent will need to find a way to arrange safe transport for their child to get home from school after a detention as thats what the school expects them to do, however its not unreasonable to think that when the parent physically cannot arange alternative transport to get the child home safely the teacher is able to let go off a bit of their power and prioritise the saftey of the child, agreeing to reschedule the detention for a day when no child is put at risk.
Just because as a teacher you have to power to do something, dosnt mean you have to do it everytime.
Even naughty children deserve to be safe, the welfare the children needs to be prioritised over school pollicy.

[melj1213]

The school is able to set them and expect your child to attend

And I am able to take my child home if the school do not inform me that they are putting her in detention as I expect them to give reasonable notice for any punishment that is taking place outside of the school hours.

That's legal too.