About School and detention?

[Recallclock]

Prepared to be flamed.

Dd has sen and is according to schools own safeguarding team 'vulnerable'
Because of bullying and lack of options when we moved her her new school is out of Borough.

There has been a few times she has been kept back as a whole class detention because someone else wouldn't shut up talking and missed her connecting bus and got home very late leaving her waiting forty minutes alone at a bus stop and walking through the door at 6.30pm. (her school finished at 4.10pm but even keeping them back twenty minutes means she misses her commenting bus.)

I had a lot of involvement with the old senco who was brilliant and was in contact regularly but a new one has started and I have little involvement with her however I spoke to her on the advice of Mumsnet and asked for dd to be not kept back if she had not been involved due to her issues getting home and if she had to be given recall for herself if it could be done at lunch or if it had to be after school with notice so I could sort collection. She's never had individual recall.

I have just had a phone call now to say she is being kept back tonight as she hasn't done her homework. I'm not impressed she has not done her homework (she does have organisation issues as part of her sen) but she's not done it so fair enough.
I'm miles away with no car and can't get hold of my Dad to get her so my sen child will be on detention until 5pm and isn't likely to walk through the door until 7pm.
She also doesn't know the buses at other times so is going to be in a right state.

Aibu to have expected them to give a sen child 24 hours notice particularly when I have asked and they agreed or keep her in at lunch?

[Shedmicehugh]

If your dd has difficulty with her organisations skills, school should be taking steps to teach her the skills to be more organised. Until the skill is learned, they should be reinforcing the strategies they are trying to teach, rather than detentions.

Take steps at home too, things such as getting your dd to set herself reminders, lists, a note stuck on the front door etc, etc

Show school you are making an effort to help teach skills and ask them to do the same.

If detentions are related to her disability and difficulties, she will think it’s unfair and she would be right.

[FudgeMallowDelight]

It doesn't sound like she has problems organising herself re homework if she always hands it in on time and in fact may have done so on this occasion too to the supply teacher. It does sound a bit heavy handed for a first offence (that may not have been an offence at all) and notice was needed. Did she explain she thinks she gave it to the supply teacher? It does sound like a conversation with the teacher is required

[Shedmicehugh]

I would also be reminding school of just how demanding school is for children with disabilities. Living in a neurotypical world, things we take for granted, par for the course, requires much more effort.

My son for example is exhausted after the demands of a school day, something as simple to us as socialising, for him it’s doesnt come naturally, it requires so much effort for him to remember the 1001 social ‘rules’, eye contact, body language, remembering what to say, when to stop, when to listen, show an interest etc, etc.

At the end of the school, then having an hour detention, when he is already exhausted would be a nightmare.

[Shedmicehugh]

Fudge the OP stated “Her sen affects her maturity, her understanding of language, her processing, her ability to manage change at short notice and her ability to understand people's intentions” I’m sure she also mentioned organisation skills somewhere.

She might usually get her homework done and handing in, whether she did on this occasion or not, is irrelevant.

I should imagine, given the difficulties the OP has described, it would take a lot of effort. It’s damaging for any child to be given the message, their best is not good enough and punished for it.

[FudgeMallowDelight]

Yes, i was responding to you saying school should be taking steps to teach her the skills to be more organised and suggesting strategies she could use at home to be more organised. Lists etc. The strategies she is using at home are already working successfully as she always gives her homework in on time.

[Shedmicehugh]

My point was, given her difficulties I should imagine it takes a lot of effort in order to achieve this AND IF she does have difficulties with organisation, there are strategies which could make that effort easier, rather than a detention.

[FudgeMallowDelight]

Sounds like the school have ballsed up anyway and she should not have had a detention let alone a no notice one.

[Shedmicehugh]

That effort easier in school I might add, where demands are higher. I was not suggesting the OP doesn’t have any strategies, I was suggesting the OP show school what strategies she uses at home, such as x,y,z rather than detentions.

[midsummabreak]

detention teaches students feel negatively about school and resent lose the joy for learning they once had. Wishful thinking, but is there any way your daughter can move schools.

[Shedmicehugh]

It’s not just homework for most children with disabilities. The pressure involved is unbelievable. I wish teachers would realise this. It’s not black and white.

My son for example might have spent ages doing homework, making sure everything is perfect. Making sure there are no mistakes. His biggest fear is ‘getting into trouble’. The homework would have already caused him a great deal of stress.

He then takes it into school, as soon as he arrives, he has to remember 1001 social ‘rules’, he has to remember the classroom rules, sit up straight, get your book out, hold your pen, no talking, listen, write what is the board, speak when spoken to, think of how to reply, remember to say please, thank you and manners etc, etc

The day has not even started yet. By the time he gets to English or whatever lesson homework is due, he has had to do this 100 times already and forgets to hand it in or has misplaced it. Then his biggest fear happens he gets into trouble. Increasing the pressure and anxiety of making sure everything is perfect next time and making him even more ‘forgetful’ next time. It’s difficult being organised, when you are trying to remember so much.

My son has ‘high functioning’ autism by the way, academically very able, high IQ etc the more ‘high functioning’ you are, the more people expect from you.

[fleshmarketclose]

shed I feel for your son, dd has autism and is academically able the anxiety she feels about school is destroying her. She is "fortunate" in so far as she has an EHCP and 1 to 1 support who is supposed to manage and alleviate the stress. It is only partially successful at best.
She has a HT with a sibling with a disability though and so he is more amenable than most to make whatever reasonable adjustments are necessary and so dd would never be in the position OP's dd is in as there would be no detention for a child whose needs mean that a detention would be damaging. There would be no strike for not handing in homework if a child has difficulties either completing school work outside of school or organising themselves to hand it in regardless of any school policies.
It is implicitly understood by all staff that policies do not come before individual needs and so children are protected from the petty jobsworth types anyway.

[Recallclock]

She does have problems with organisation and planning. At home we have a chart where as soon as she gets home it goes on the chart and I spend my life asking if there is homework or not. She doesn't get much as they have much longer days and like I previously said we were told before starting that the school 'didn't do homework' due to the long days.

The homework mentioned is not on the chart at all.
Unfortunately she told the teacher that she had no idea what homework she was on about. It was only when she got home and we were looking through he homework folder (which I bought to help) that it wasn't there either and she mentioned handing work in to a male cover teacher Mr x but couldn't be sure it was that homework.

Yes shedmice very similar. Dd finds school massively stressful and exhausting.

[Recallclock]

. His biggest fear is ‘getting into trouble’

Oh yes to this!

[Shedmicehugh]

Flesh thank you, your poor dd, it’s heartbreaking isn’t it.

My son has attended 3 failed mainstream placements, in brief, they failed due to the enormous pressure of schools trying to get to him to ‘perform’ to their expectations of his neurotypical peers, without any allowances for his difficulties. He self harmed etc He didn’t have a EHCP, in the first 2, however he did in the last one. Unfortunately an EHCP doesn’t always bring understanding.

He now attends a specialist school, no detentions! Just positive reinforcement and sanctions for any serious behaviour issues. On the rare occasion he does get homework, he can do it with minimal stress, without the added pressure! Previous schools demands have severely damaged his thinking and self esteem. Even after a year at his new school, he still tries to ‘mask’ his autism in order to try to ‘fit in’ to the expectations set at previous schools. He still has ‘burn outs’

planetautismblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/05/aspie-burnout/

[Shedmicehugh]

Recall I think you need to arrange a meeting with SENCO and class teacher. Explain to them how difficult it is for your dd on a daily basis.

Just because she is ‘capable’ doesn’t mean they can’t make adjustments to make her experience of school a bit more positive and rewarding. Poor thing.

Does she have any type of IEP or learning plan?

[Recallclock]

It's parents evening next week so going to have a chat.
She used to have an iep but her year six teacher stopped it as 'she didn't believe in them' . She went up to secondary on school action plus but has made academic progress and now. She is on the sen register though.

She doesn't get any help as far as I know now since the new Senco. She has extra time in place for exams and can use a laptop and overlays but doesn't get any actual TA type help.

Last week they had a trainer of some type in and the person helped dd in lesson and dd was so grateful that she had someone to help explain what she needed to do it was pitiful

Her processing issues mean sometimes you have to explain four or five times before she gets it but what teacher has time for that.

[Shedmicehugh]

Recall the school get extra funding for pupils with SEN, they will have to make time!

I think IEP’s were scraped a few years ago, however they should be replaced with some kind of learning plan.

It wouldn’t need explaining 5 times, if instructions were broken down into smaller steps or explained in simpler, unambiguous language!

List her difficulties, ask SENCO for some support for those difficulties, in the form of a plan, a SMART plan, a who, what, where, when plan. With goals and success criteria.

[fleshmarketclose]

Dd will soon need specialist provision, just having a reassessment made now. Of course it will mean a fight but I did it for ds and will do it again.
Even with the best will in the world I'm not convinced a mainstream secondary school can ever meet the needs of a teen with ASD. Unfortunately not all teachers are decent some are barely human as illustrated on these threads regularly and schools lack the training and resources to provide quality support to meet an individual child's needs
I have bullied and forced the school to meet dd's statement (it is now a case where I say jump and they ask how high and how often fundamentally because they have no understanding of their legal obligations with regards to dd's statement, disability discrimination or much else as far as I can see).I've chosen the TAs, I've re written the statement,the school meet the statement and document it to my satisfaction but it isn't enough not even now she has the autism specialist TA as her support.
In theory it should work but in reality the anxiety is crippling and dd in year ten is hardly attending and not producing any work when she is there.
When ds moved to an ASD specialist school it was the first time in his life he didn't appear autistic where in Mainstream he presented as very autistic. I'm hoping for a similar transformation for dd but first I have to get her there and then the school have to put right the damage that her current school have inflicted. It breaks my heart tbh.

[Shedmicehugh]

www.specialeducationalneeds.co.uk/faqs-about-sen-funding.html

Here explains about school funding. Might come in handy for your meeting.

If your dd struggles with certain aspects, there is no excuse for giving her no support whatsoever

[Shedmicehugh]

Flesh it seems a never ending fight, doesn’t it! You have to fight for provision, an EHCP, a school placement. Become an expert in your childs difficulties, and what provision is needed, a legal expert. On top of being a mum to a child with SN’s, a carer, a cook, a cleaner etc etc. I think I’ve gained a few grey hairs over the years!

Ds is currently having reassessment too and trauma therapy due to his previous schools.

I really hope some of the unsympathetic people are reading and have taken at least a bit of empathy from it.

I wish you and your dd the best luck, you certainly deserve it

[fleshmarketclose]

It is a constant battle, I'm regularly beyond exhausted because the battles are on top of managing two dc with autism at home day to day as well.
It's a good job dd's school don't know their obligations as well as I do because it would be fair to say that there might have been times when my threats haven't been wholly with foundation
The problem with secondary is that our dc are at the mercy of so many different staff and it's impossible to dodge the dross all the time. So whilst in one day you might have four good teachers and the ASD specialist TA giving quality support, the one lesson with the teacher who ignores the statement, fails to manage the class well or is a petty jobsworth completely obliterates the efforts of the five other staff that day and has implications for the following days and weeks to come.
Unfortunately over the past three years dd has experienced plenty of dross (that's why I choose her TA's and give a list of preferred teachers each June in time for the following year) and it has had far reaching effects and dd will need therapy to process this as well. If some teachers had any idea of the damage they inflict they would never sleep easy again I would hope.

[LakieLady]

If a child makes the wrong choice and is kept behind, the parent needs to arrange for them to get home safely.

I agree, and that is why I don't agree with short notice detentions: it doesn't give the parent sufficient time to make those arrangements.

They should also have different arrangements in place for children who are vulnerable because of SEN or disability. That comes within the scope of reasonable adjustment imo.

[MrMeSeeks]

Recallclock your poor dd, no wonder she's annoyed, i would be!

[Shedmicehugh]

Flesh ‘after seeking legal advice’ is a fav of mine! Although I’ve been nowhere near legal advice!! I’ve just quoted the SEN COP!

Two kids with SN’s must be bloody hard work.

To be honest it’s the same with specialist secondary school. Some teachers have more training or more experience than others, I think the only difference is at least wanting to understand, even if they are not the most trained or experienced.