About School and detention?

[Recallclock]

Prepared to be flamed.

Dd has sen and is according to schools own safeguarding team 'vulnerable'
Because of bullying and lack of options when we moved her her new school is out of Borough.

There has been a few times she has been kept back as a whole class detention because someone else wouldn't shut up talking and missed her connecting bus and got home very late leaving her waiting forty minutes alone at a bus stop and walking through the door at 6.30pm. (her school finished at 4.10pm but even keeping them back twenty minutes means she misses her commenting bus.)

I had a lot of involvement with the old senco who was brilliant and was in contact regularly but a new one has started and I have little involvement with her however I spoke to her on the advice of Mumsnet and asked for dd to be not kept back if she had not been involved due to her issues getting home and if she had to be given recall for herself if it could be done at lunch or if it had to be after school with notice so I could sort collection. She's never had individual recall.

I have just had a phone call now to say she is being kept back tonight as she hasn't done her homework. I'm not impressed she has not done her homework (she does have organisation issues as part of her sen) but she's not done it so fair enough.
I'm miles away with no car and can't get hold of my Dad to get her so my sen child will be on detention until 5pm and isn't likely to walk through the door until 7pm.
She also doesn't know the buses at other times so is going to be in a right state.

Aibu to have expected them to give a sen child 24 hours notice particularly when I have asked and they agreed or keep her in at lunch?

[Greensleeves]

You're just unlucky if you come up against one of the automaton-type teachers who can't engage with reason and are only capable of repeating school policies as though they are the Beatitudes. The only things you can do is go around them - there is usually somebody senior on staff who can handle a rational discussion and come to a compromise.

No parent should tolerate unnecessary risk to their child's physical safety. For any reason.

[MaisyPops]

There are separate issues in this in my opinion:

1. Whole class sanctions are exceptionally poor form (really as is anything more than waiting a few minutes for the class ti be ready ti be dismissed / waiting for silence to wrap the lesson up)
   

1. It's absolutely fine to issue her with a detention for homework. I'm also of the view that somethibg can't be after school for one pupil and not another.
   

1. Same day detentions (whilst legally allowed) aren't good in my eyes for a number of reasons. Teachers should give home an opportunity to make alternative arrangements (e.g. I've had a student do 2 30 mins after school rather than 1 hour because of busses or have put a detention on a day when home could collect).

[Greensleeves]

I think being a parent who generally supports the school/backs up teachers on consequences, stays on top of homework and discipline etc goes a long way towards establishing the sort of relationship where you don't get a brick wall response when you raise a safeguarding concern. Coupled with the fact that most teachers care about children's wellbeing more than they care about winning. There are always exceptions though. If a teacher is so inflexible and so slavishly wedded to "school policy" that they are prepared to put a child's safety at risk, then SLT need to know about it in any case.

[rowdywoman1]

MaisyPops
Yes - whole class detentions are totally inappropriate and usually the sign of weak teaching.
They serve only to alienate all the 'good children' as it clearly shows that the teacher has lost control and can't distinguish between the cooperative children and those behaving badly. In fact, whole class detentions merely serve to wind up the whole class and to undermine the authority of the teacher. Generally most children (including young children in primary school) will stop caring as they lose their respect for the adult. Many schools actively ban them!

[fleshmarketclose]

I'm with you Greensleeves a calm and reasoned approach in writing will see a parent listened to over and above any school policies in place. Dd will never have a detention, will not receive a strike, will not have to complete homework that hasn't been given with a long window of opportunity to complete etc etc. It is school, its place in dd's life does not come over and above her well being and so school have to bend to make all the reasonable adjustments necessary to make her attendance there as bearable as possible.

[upsideup]

Pengggwn
But why should the child recieve further punishment because their parents were unable for whatever reason to make alternative arrangements for them to get home safely after the detention. Surely when that is the case it would be fairer for the school who gives no-notice detentions so holds detentions everyday anyway to make an exception and reschedule the dention for tomorrow when the parent can ensure the child gets home safely? Eg prioritise the saftey of the child over the teacher legal right to punish when they want.
Also why should a child be punished for needing the toilet?

[TinaMena]

But the law IS that no-notice detentions are allowed.
There is also nothing in law that prevents parents from telling the school to FUCK OFF

[ForalltheSaints]

I presume no notice detentions were one of the reforms instituted by Mr Gove? Unless someone can advise otherwise?

24 hours notice for someone with SEN and given the transport issues is what I think should happen. Approach the Head I would suggest.

[Greensleeves]

The law is that they are allowed as long as they don't put pupils at risk, and dependent on whether parents are able to make safe alternative travel arrangements.

I'll never understand the small minority of teachers who get off on ramming policies down people's throats and strutting about like Napoleon, gleefully refusing to let a desperate kid go and change her sanitary towel. But there's a lunatic fringe in every profession I suppose.

[MaisyPops]

rowdywoman1
I agree.
I put minutes on for my classes and the students who are good don't bat an eyelid because they know I'll never keep them.
If most of the class are being chatty then I'll say things like 'at the moment 6 people are exempt from minutes' and my reply to 'am i exempt?' is always 'if you have to ask and check then you're probably not'

I think the OP should be raising the whole class sanction witj school. As a form tutor I get really irritated when I get 'bulk' negatives on our software. Fair enough if it's '7 studnets with the same situation' but it winds me up when it's clearly a whole class negative behaviour point for 'disruption' when 3 students are the most immaculately well behaved students ever.

[Recallclock]

Thank you Rowdy.

[Recallclock]

'I said I would place the onus on you to make arrangements'

Peng as someone who has worked in education do you realise how unrealistic a statement that is in no notice situations.

I have had children in school who lived in rural areas and the nearest school is miles and miles away and only accessible out of these villages by the school transport. Parents two couldn't drive and wouldn't have had the money for taxis to get the kids home.

There were also kids with caring responsibilities who had to leave to care for Mum and smaller siblings.

Single parents who were working miles away at the only place they could find work and replied on child minders or relatives to collect.

Or at the extreme the two boys who had both parents killed in a crash and the auntie that was doing school runs to a nursery and four schools at one point.

That might not be your concern but it is the reason no notice detentions with a statement of your kids broke the rules so it's not our problem in unreasonable.

[Recallclock]

*who
*rely

Oh my God I am usually literate I swear!!

[SPARKLYSTARSHINESBRIGHT]

Our high school is 24 hours notice and I did request a detention to be carried out a couple of hours later and it wasn't convenient and the school obliged.
Pupils should feel "safe" at school, this is one of the ticky boxes on the Ofsted report. Travelling home late in the dark is not going to make your daughter feel safe. I would send an email and put it in writing so you've got some comeback if they "forget" another time.

[MaisyPops]

There is a time and place for no notice detentions.
E.g. I have had situations with parents where the child wasn't getting to school on time. Home were supportive and annoyed at their child being late. We had an agreement that late to school = 30 mins detention that night. I didn't inform them each time. It was a rolling agreement and their view was 'he can make his own way back. We aren't picking him up' (NT child. Longer but not dangerous walk home). We only had to do it a few weeks before the pupil realised it wasn't worth being late.

I can see situations where schools would use same day detentions but I don't think it should be for routine behaviour or homework.

[rowdywoman1]

OP, sometimes schools screw up - the best of intentions and all that. They're big institutions and communication is not always foolproof'.
When parents acknowledge a school's position while calmly but assertively pointing out the problem - in this case the safeguarding problem caused by the lack of 'reasonable adjustment' for SEN, then you're likely to be met with a solution.

Same day detentions are inappropriate, just as whole class detentions are (though as Maisypops points out) the threat can be useful. Unfortunately they are 'allowed' in the behaviour guidelines - but with lots of 'qualifications'.

And as Greensleeves points out, some teachers get hooked on policies and rules to the detriment of common sense - and they're usually the teachers who struggle the most.

Good luck with raising it - the other place to look at is the school's behaviour policy and see what it says about same day detentions. If it doesn't mention the safeguarding / SEN side you might want to point it out

[Recallclock]

Thanks all,

As I've repeated throughout this is not about e

[youarenotkiddingme]

I kinda enjoy school threads now just for the popping up of peng the voice of absolute no reason or compromise and the voice of maisy who is realistic and has very many lucky parents and pupils in her (?) care.

The school may be 'able' legally to impose on the day detentions regardless of inconvenience etc. But a decent school who wants to maintain a working relationship with parents and pupils will be flexible within reason.

My ds HOY is also extremely reasonable. As he himself said - ds absolutely never sets out to do wrong (anxiety) and an after school detention would raise his anxiety even more and would be counter productive.

On the other hand he has used - and I agreed with his use - isolation for ds when he's had a complete meltdown (asd) and thrown items etc. Not as punishment but because it's quiet and he gets support and time to calm down.

It's not about "the rules say so we must do". It should be about "whatbis best for everyone within the policies and ethos of the school".

[youarenotkiddingme]

Should add ds gets a lunchtime detention if he's issued one and then a 'debrief' with his keyworker to make sure he understands.

[MaisyPops]

rowdywoman1
I hope it didn'r read like a threat of keeping everyone in.
I put minutes on and then always let the well behaved ones go (keeping good kids in breeds resentment and lack of respect ... and rightly so. I hated one of my teachers for this but also thought they were a joke for keeping good kids like me in).
The threat is good for classes with nice students who can be chatty but end up desperate to know 'am i on the good list or the minute list' because they'll usually work doubly hard to make sure their name is on my good list. I never reveal the 'exemptions' list until the end.

[Recallclock]

Whoops!
As i have said throughout this is not about evading punishment just ensuring it is done safely.

Dd struggles like hell with school, we have had issues with refusal in the past.
She's come home and cried because she is now stressed about going in tomorrow if no one told the teacher that safeguarding had told her to go home.

She's unwell at the moment and going through loads of tests and I hope the stress caused was worth it for a blooming worksheet.

[MaisyPops]

Thank you youarenotkiddingme. I do try to be sensible and reasonable (even if that means calling out 'that parenty'-ness & getting flamed).
The OP has every right to want to raise these issues with school.
If I was the OP, I would raise the whole class detention issues (i love it wheb parents call up to complain about that because it stops me sounding like a whining form tutor complaining about colleagues when they are totally unreasonable ) and would also ask for reasonable adjustments to enable her child to complete the required sanction in a way that is accessible.