to think it's time to bin the word feminism

[whatnow123]

Good Morning Britain conducted two seperate polls. One asked the public if they identify as a feminist, 85% said no. The other asked if you believe in gender equality, 85% said yes.

Susanna Reid & Charlotte Hawkins, both feminists, stated they are the same thing. Clearly most people don't agree.

Regardless of the dictionary definition, the word "feminism" appears to be tainted. Does the word now do more harm than good by turning off both women and men from ideals we agree upon?

Interesting comments about female dog handlers.
Many women compete in Canicross, where you have to run cross country with your dog. They also compete in Schutzhund and tracking. They work and compete as shepherds with sheepdogs.

Women dont compete with men in weight lifting.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5265409/Police-ordered-change-way-recruit-dog-handlers.html

MaryLennoxsScowl, it's not just the GMB poll though. The Fawcett Society did a similar poll and found only 7% identified as feminists.

@GoldenBlue

"The assessment for police dog handlers is to be made easier as apparently female candidates apparently lack the strength/stamina to complete it successfully."

That's not an accurate summary of what's happening. Three police forces use a different test to the others which is more physically arduous. The case has ruled that this isn't necessary and results in fewer women dog handlers passing than there should be. These three police forces will now use the same test as other police forces.

I do not believe the issue is with the training approach. Women have passed the test in the past. But smaller women or men may struggle to handle a dog that has been trained to take the bite and take down and restrain a target. It is important that a handler is able to control their dog, for a considerable time. The assessment needs to ensure that all handlers have sufficient strength and endurance as well as the technical handling skills to do the job. They can always choose to handle search dogs instead if they aren't robust enough for the larger dogs, it's a different assessment and less arduous whilst requiring more technical skills.

“But I don't want a tiny little woman incapable of lifting a grown person in the role through quota and bias.”

Once again, if this happens, it’s wrong. Does it happen?

“The assessment needs to ensure that all handlers have sufficient strength and endurance as well as the technical handling skills to do the job”

Yes of course it does.......

Dione that is sad. I still think the point others made about any name being denigrated would be a problem, as in the BLM group who found their name was being associated with things they didn't intend it to be, such as terrorism and 'reverse racism'. I think 'man-hating' is the big one for feminism, but I find it difficult to accept that a group begun because of widespread inequality for women should have to adopt a name that removes mention of the female sex to be acceptable.

With regard to women telling other women what choices they can make, isn't dissent in movements hugely common and what makes for healthy debate?

Actually, presumably this comes back to the Suffragist/Suffragette debate and which had the most effect. Maybe we should have a schism between those who want to call themselves feminists and those who want to be equalists, it's all the same to me so long as both groups lobby and fight for equal representation and anti-discrimination and diversity and we start to see some kind of movement. It's like trying to get paternity leave made equally acceptable in society, you could have different views on why this would be a step forward for equality in the workplace (women would be less likely to be discriminated against by bosses who think presenteeism is all vs men would have equal access to taking time out with their babies) but the application of the beliefs leads to the same result.

I don't think the "debate" is at all healthy if it is turning women off feminism, particularly young women.

@DioneTheDiabolist it seems like you're sorely needed on the FWR boards to call out all the anti men stuff and the damaging types of feminism and to show people how to discuss issues without alienating other women and men.

I'm not surprised at the GMB poll and I've seen other polls suggesting the number of women who identify as feminists is even lower.
I am not a feminist. I spent a few months learning about it, I found it interesting and agree with some things, but mostly it was feminists I spoke to online and in real life that put me off. I don't suppose anyone wants a pro-life hijabi who likes chivalry and ironing in their gang anyway

I sometimes go onto the FWR boards, usually to call out anti woman sentiment. I am not welcome, get ad hominem attacks and one time the FWR regulars decided mid thread to stop engaging and talk about baking instead.

For all the talk about healthy debate and dissent, I think the FWR regulars prefer an echo chamber.

If no one challenges or attempts to raise the level of a debate they see as toxic then it will never change, surely? Why is it that the MN FWR is full of regulars that put forward toxic anti-women and anti-men feminism?

I don't know.

Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women.
Forty years of backlash produced the mistaken idea that Feminism is an equality movement. Why is it not?
This was clearly stated over 100 years ago and still applies today.
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." Anatole France

Equity is not the same thing as equality. Feminism was never about equality, and ever about equity.

Society will not function correctly until patriarchy ends. I think our fate as a species depends on this. The stakes are that high.

Foie gras - the new boss is still male!

Thebewilderness I like that Anatole France quote.

@foieGras I can see how you could believe that in the UK and other similar counties there is no work for feminism to do. I don't agree and I don't agree with the rosy picture of how much better girls/women do than boys/men. I think there's a lot to discuss around the idea that women should be expected to fall behind men if they have short career breaks for example.

But, there are many places around the world where girls/women do not have free choice, equality of opportunity and do not do better than boys in education and employment. Feminism still has work to do for those women, surely?

Women have free choice, equality of opportunity and do better than boys in education and employment unless they make the choice to have children.

Hmm. A big 'unless'.
First off, that choice is most frequently made jointly by a woman and her partner, who is often a man.
Second, child care is often seen to be the woman's responsibility. Proper paternity leave, decent affordable child care, and a wider acceptance that fathers can be as competent at child care and as willing to do it as mothers, will go some way to removing some of the career inequality resulting from childbearing. What should we call people campaigning for this sort of thing?

Oops, underline fail! Point still stands though.

Society will not function correctly until patriarchy ends. I think our fate as a species depends on this. The stakes are that high.

How do you end the patriarchy?