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Original poster

to think it's time to bin the word feminism

464 replies

whatnow123 · 31/01/2018 15:28

Good Morning Britain conducted two seperate polls. One asked the public if they identify as a feminist, 85% said no. The other asked if you believe in gender equality, 85% said yes.

Susanna Reid & Charlotte Hawkins, both feminists, stated they are the same thing. Clearly most people don't agree.

Regardless of the dictionary definition, the word "feminism" appears to be tainted. Does the word now do more harm than good by turning off both women and men from ideals we agree upon?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 05/02/2018 13:18

“But tbh the worst male chauvinists I know is my mother in law, who like a lot of women justify the way that they wait on men hand and foot with 'well they can't do x, they are hopeless at y' hmm”

Absolutely. Women “benefit” from the patriarchy too- if they want their lives to go in a particular way. And in my experience the worst “man haters” are anti feminist women. Feminists expect men to have high standards.

Shimmershimmerandshine · 05/02/2018 13:20

It is very difficult for individuals to overcome millennia of prejudice and social norms, social conditioning of both men & women

Are people of colour stupid, because we still need help to overcome past & present racism ?

Two points:

  1. I think racism is different and should be treated as such. Feminism/ equality for women is complex enough without trying to tackle racism at the same time.
  1. I think you hit the nail on the head with your first point. It is about individuals and social conditioning of men and women, which is why when people talk about Feminism being purely about women's rights and the power of the patriarchy that I start to scratch my head in a puzzled fashion.
AssassinatedBeauty · 05/02/2018 13:20

"People are responsible for their own life choices."

Yes they are. Do you recognise that some people have less choices than others due to their circumstances? Do you agree that no one makes their choice in a vacuum, with no influences at all?

Shimmershimmerandshine · 05/02/2018 13:21

Feminism doesn't mean equality of the sexes. It means liberation of females from patriarchy.

No, that is one definition of Feminism. There are others, start with the Oxford dictionary.

hollowtree · 05/02/2018 13:24

Oh bertrand ffs! How can you have misread that!? I literally don't know How to dumb it down for you.

What hollowtree is saying: "The POINT I am making is VERY simple." That point BEING:
"What people on this thread are saying: Men tell us what to do = patriarchy.

Women tell us what to do = shut up you stupid fucking woman and do what the feminists are saying."

Yes?

BertrandRussell · 05/02/2018 13:26

“What people on this thread are saying: Men tell us what to do = patriarchy.”

But they aren’t.

hollowtree · 05/02/2018 13:32

Have you read the comment underneath It? Do you know What it is in reference to?
Can you honestly tell me that, if a movement of men decided they had enough of women exposing themselves and they were going to challenge it that posters here would accept It? I certainly wouldn't.

But, women dictating to women what to do- absolutely fine. And I'm a stupid waffling idiot to challenge it apparently.

Shimmershimmerandshine · 05/02/2018 13:43

Can you honestly tell me that, if a movement of men decided they had enough of women exposing themselves and they were going to challenge it that posters here would accept It?

I don't know about the likes of people on this thread. However the whole covering up decently whole breastfeeding malarkey has a hell of a lot of followers, both male and female in case a little old man can't cope with a flash of nipple. Now I've always imagined that old men have seen a hell of a lot more in their time, but people seem to buy into it for some reason. Control of women being the obvious conclusion.

Shimmershimmerandshine · 05/02/2018 13:44

While.....

MasterWu · 05/02/2018 13:48

Yes they are. Do you recognise that some people have less choices than others due to their circumstances? Do you agree that no one makes their choice in a vacuum, with no influences at all?

Do some people have less choice? To a certain extent Yes, but given education is free in this country, how they choose to exercise this choice is not as narrow as some would believe.

Do I agree no one makes a choice in a vacuum? No. People can choose to ignore societal pressures if they wish. Some feminists seem to believe that the majority of women are too weak to resist, and need them (the feminists) to speak up on their behalf.

makeourfuture · 05/02/2018 13:49

It's not about someone telling you what to do. It is about conditions, and power, and age-old biases.

AssassinatedBeauty · 05/02/2018 13:52

You believe everyone is capable of absolutely ignoring every aspect of their background, upbringing, culture and society when making decisions. Women don't do this because they are stupid and also because they're duped by feminism into believing they're weak and victims. Have I summarised your position correctly there?

MasterWu · 05/02/2018 14:05

You believe everyone is capable of absolutely ignoring every aspect of their background, upbringing, culture and society when making decisions. Women don't do this because they are stupid and also because they're duped by feminism into believing they're weak and victims. Have I summarised your position correctly there?

*You believe everyone is capable of absolutely ignoring every aspect of their background, upbringing, culture and society when making decisions

Yes.

Women don't do this because they are stupid

Nope

because they're duped by feminism into believing they're weak and victims

Luckily not, hence the very few who identify as feminists. Feminism's default position is that women are weak, vulnerable and need protecting (Not by men of course, but by those who know how to think correctly) Outside of mumsnet, no one I know thinks like that.

AssassinatedBeauty · 05/02/2018 14:07

Why do women make these choices then?

makeourfuture · 05/02/2018 14:13

Feminism's default position is that women are weak, vulnerable and need protecting

Again. Where is this coming from? What are you talking about?

RatRolyPoly · 05/02/2018 14:40

Feminism's default position is that women are weak, vulnerable and need protecting (Not by men of course, but by those who know how to think correctly) Outside of mumsnet, no one I know thinks like that.

That's because in the real world loads of women are liberal feminists, and lots of women who don't see themselves as feminist at all, well, they often also are aligned with it in their outlooks.

Here's a little from a wiki definition:

"Liberal feminism is an individualistic form of feminist theory, which focuses on women's ability to maintain their equality through their own actions and choices. Its emphasis is on making the legal and political rights of women equal to men."

They're bloody everywhere out there in the real world, that liberal lot (i.e. me). You don't hear an awful lot from them on here though, strangely...

Not to bang a drum or anything, just sayin'.

hollowtree · 05/02/2018 14:43

rat thank you so much for posting that, it was really enlightening for me. Before joining Mumsnet I have to admit I didn't know an awful lot about feminism, and all that I've learnt has been on boards and chats like this, so I denied being a part of it because it didn't represent my views. But now I know, I'm a liberal feminist! ☺

Shimmershimmerandshine · 05/02/2018 14:55

I agree it was really interesting and explains why I consider myself to be a feminist but have been told I'm not one previously on MN Hmm

RatRolyPoly · 05/02/2018 14:57

Hooray! I'll be honest, I didn't know I was a liberal feminist either.... but that's because every single feminist I know in real life is liberal Confused

RatRolyPoly · 05/02/2018 15:02

...and did you know there isn't even a subforum for liberal feminism on Mumsnet?? But there's a thread right now on Site Stuff right now canvassing interest for such a place...

BertrandRussell · 05/02/2018 15:09

Delighted that you have all found your tribe. But do think very carefully about whether all women have the freedom of choice that you have. And whether the choices people make are made in a vacuum or whether they are influenced by stereotyping, conditioning and societal expectations.

ReliefOfChaos · 05/02/2018 15:31

From BigChocFrenzy: "One way to weaken any demand for equality is to pick out examples of any sympathiser who ever said / did something stupid or nasty."

Sounds like the main purpose of every trans thread on this board.

DeleteOrDecay · 05/02/2018 15:39

Feminism's default position is that women are weak, vulnerable and need protecting

You're just making stuff up now.

Shimmershimmerandshine · 05/02/2018 15:39

That's fine Bert, I stated above that I believe that some women are repressed so I completely agree not everyone can question and challenge in the same way and never said otherwise. But what I'm unclear about is what to do about it? I can't see that buying into the radical stuff and posting on MN about it helps anyone. What do you think needs to happen out of interest from a practical point of view in the future?

OnTheList · 05/02/2018 19:40

Whatever word people used for it would be denounced by the daily mail and such, and trickle down into wider society. Lets say those formerly known as feminists were called flubberlobs. As soon as flubberlobs had an unpopular opinion to men (such as that the Nordic model should be used for prostitution) the mail would go into overdrive blackening the name of flubberlobs and making out as if they hate men, rather than are trying to make things better for women.

So no, whatever word is used, people will actually be against it, I reckon. Saying you believe in gender equality and actually doing things to achieve that world, are vastly different things. And usually, stuff thats good for womens rights is very very unpopular with men (and by extension, many women). Its simply 'not cool' to say you are a feminist.