to think it's time to bin the word feminism

[whatnow123]

Good Morning Britain conducted two seperate polls. One asked the public if they identify as a feminist, 85% said no. The other asked if you believe in gender equality, 85% said yes.

Susanna Reid & Charlotte Hawkins, both feminists, stated they are the same thing. Clearly most people don't agree.

Regardless of the dictionary definition, the word "feminism" appears to be tainted. Does the word now do more harm than good by turning off both women and men from ideals we agree upon?

My issue with the 'walk on girls' this week in both darts and F1 was 'what the hell? That still happens??' I think women should have a choice int he job they do. I do wonder why a woman wants to do that job and perhaps I wonder whether they grew up in a patriarchal household that gave them the view that their place is to look pretty, not to be playing the darts/driving the cars - those women do exist I'm sure as someone is telling their sons/daughters that pink is for girls, blue is for boys, etc. from a very young age as evidenced in the playground.

I wouldn't ask them how they would feel about their daughters doing that job, I'd ask them how they would explain their role in the sport to my son. How do they think they are contributing to his views on treating women in society and the workplace as he grows up? Whilst I can try my best to raise him as a feminist, situations like that will constantly be absorbed in his unconsciousness.

I think we all know that happens which is why many of us grew up seeing magazines in shops with half naked women on the front and page 3 being the norm and as kids didn't question it and women's place in society.

Anyway, I wanted to say that the thing with 'feminist' is I think it is a term that my DH wouldn't come out and declare himself as in the office, for e.g. Something that doesn't start with 'fem' is a word that perhaps men can feel more aligned to.....all that growing up with 'fem' words being related to women means those of an age able to actually help make structural change find it a little harder I think. Perhaps 'equalist' needs to be used more - that helps take in race/disabilities too I think, which is nice as in one term it's easier to encompass all when having a conversation. But, appreciate it doesn't forge the feminist agenda quite in the way it needs to. A word that's easier to discuss with men and youngsters is needed though.

How do you end the patriarchy?

I think the accomplishments of femenism have already done so much. Voting or instance.

But I think that what you find is that the closer you get to your goal, the harder it becomes. Getting rid of the engrained and entrenched biases will be very hard.

The thing I always think of is the male voice of command. Or as femenism might say, "mansplaining". We have somehow gotten to the place that we expect the deeper voice to be that of authority. Men shift into it and dominate.

How do we change this? Mr Deepvoice may be an idiot.

I am male, and explaining this. Good lord.

What are you doing to end the patriarchy makeourfuture? And what is it you think women should be doing?

People need to just understand a word before they identify or disassociate with it. Clearly people just dont understand what feminist means

Is it possible to be profeminism and antifeminist?

As the survey said most people are for gender equality but not for feminism- that lies at the door of feminists. Perhaps it is them who dont know what it means?

The media and anti feminists have done a brilliant job of spreading misinformation about feminism. Just as they did about woman’s lib back in the day. You see it every day. The number of people who post on here saying “I’m not a feminist because X” and when you ask them to say more about X they can’t- it’s just something they have heard or read and accepted unquestioningly.

I am a socialist feminist/supporter. To me a basic /citizen's income is needed so that any woman can choose to live independently. To me housing, education, healthcare these are feminist issues.

Are housing health and education male issues as well?

I wouldn't bin anything because there was a poll on "Good Morning Britain" about it...

I don't call myself a feminist really because many feminists want to prevent other people's freedom.

Also seems a bit like a conspiracy theory.

Are housing health and education male issues as well?

Absolutely. But I think women, especially if children are involved, feel the impacts more than men.

Disclaimer: I am not unbiased. I am a socialist activist.

“It represents women who enjoy putting other women who don't agree with them down. This topic is a perfect microcosm of society and several of you have represented perfectly the negativity I associate with feminism. ”

I’m afraid I agree.

I’ve read through this thread with growing irritation. Taking part of someone’s post and, in a single sentence, demanding explanations or justification for it is not intellegent debating. It’s patronising nit-picking, often for the sake of it.
It’s also putting many people right off. If it’s annoying to me, think what it’s like for the person you think you’re challenging.

When someone does that to me, it doesn’t challenge my thinking at all: it merely makes me not want to engage further. It shuts me down, I wonder if the pseudo-lecturers realise that?

If you want to challenge a statement, then put some thought and effort into it and post a counter argument.

Yes we should ditch the word, because GMB says so obviously

The word feminism is fine and is very much needed still even in the U.K.

That should say: the word feminism is fine and the movement is still very much needed even in the U.K.

Tanith-the problem is that if someone makes a categorical statement like “Feminism is X” without any examples or back up it’s quite difficult to respond with anything except “No it isn’t”

Which is also incredibly unhelpful. I’m always up for a debate- but there has to be something to debate with…

BertrandRussell I agree that a bald, inaccurate statement should be challenged, but that’s not really the type of post I mean.

Surely you can see how frustrating it is to have posted an argument only to have someone reply with one single comment, demanding that you elaborate or justify or explain. In too many cases, it’s lazy and patronising and it does shut down debate.

And also that might be how some people feel but it's absolutely not how I feel and I am relatively new to the fwr board . I have seen real examples of debate and critical thinking on there.

Why are feminists on this sort of thread focusing on grid girls rather than the BBC pay discrepancy? Cheering about women losing their jobs rather than being angry about blatant discrimination?

Choosing to work as a promotions girl or model, dancer or hostess has nothing to do with being brought up in a patriarchal home or wearing pink as a baby. It's capitalising on an asset. If you're born with the good looks that qualify you for employment in the glamour industry, why not make the most of them, when the alternative is a low-paid job in a shop or factory? Yet these women are sneered at for ideological reasons and it is implied they are too dumb to see they are being exploited. What about the exploitation involved in being a shelf filler or frozen fish packer?

I haven't got the looks to do their jobs and I'm lucky enough to have the qualifications to be able to avoid menial labour, but that doesn't give me the right to look down on them.

No ones looking down on grid girls. We are looking down on the men who create these roles and think it's ok to use women for decorative purposes.

“Surely you can see how frustrating it is to have posted an argument only to have someone reply with one single comment, demanding that you elaborate or justify or explain. In too many cases, it’s lazy and patronising and it does shut down debate.”

Yes of course. But I haven’t see that happen on this thread. I am aware that you might think that’s an example of what you mean- but I”m really not sure what else to say!

Feminism is another victim of the modern trend of making everything very uniform, labelling it and putting it in little boxes. There's an expectation that if you identify as a feminist you can neatly be put into a little box. You will have a pussy hat, be far left wing, wear sensible shoes (good for all that marching), want to 'smash the patriachy', sneer at the phrase 'NAMALT', and scream 'that is sexual harassment' in the face of any man who asks if you're having a nice evening and wonders if he might buy you a drink.

I think lots of women buy into different strands of feminist thought, (equal pay, maternity rights, family planning, breaking women into senior positions, gender critical thought) but don't want themselves to be packed into a little box and labelled. I know I certainly don't.

I also don't think feminism speaks to a lot of women outside the middle classes. They're not interested, for example, in women who want to stay home with their children and for that to be an affordable option if that woman has a partner.

And I think there are more issues which are more important which affect everybody to be frank. Like housing and wage suppression. I think an awful lot of the reupsurge of feminism has a lot to do with the fact that we are not in prosperous times at the moment, and people look for someone to blame. For some people it's immigrants or bankers, for others it's 'the patriarchy.' I think they're probably all oversimplifying a complex problem by pointing the blame in a limited area. I suspect if the economy improves the current wave of feminism will die down.

I find it very frustrating when people insist that feminists sneer at or look down on or dispise women who work in porn or prostitution or the glamour industry. I have never seen a feminist do this. What we do is despise the people, usually men, who exploit these women, make money out of them then cast them aside when they have outlived their usefulness.