to think it's time to bin the word feminism

[whatnow123]

Good Morning Britain conducted two seperate polls. One asked the public if they identify as a feminist, 85% said no. The other asked if you believe in gender equality, 85% said yes.

Susanna Reid & Charlotte Hawkins, both feminists, stated they are the same thing. Clearly most people don't agree.

Regardless of the dictionary definition, the word "feminism" appears to be tainted. Does the word now do more harm than good by turning off both women and men from ideals we agree upon?

honeylulu just curious, but does your SIL call herself a feminist? Or is she a non feminist defining what feminism is?

And yet I know of at least one "woman in business" charity auction with naked waiters.... the behaviour of the woman from footage I've seen was not dissimilar for that attributed to the presidents club

As far as i know noone is calling for that to be shut down.

Because how we view a man and a woman doing the same thing is different. And still very much driven from patriachally ideas of how men and woman should behave or have been allowed to behave historically.

@Toffeelatteplease I think anyone here would condemn anyone, women or men, who sexually harass and assault people doing their jobs whether they are naked waiters or the usual kind of waiter at the President's Club. I don't think you'd get many feminists who would support a fundraiser with naked staff.

Do you accept that there is any bias or discrimination against women in our society these days?

“I don't think a forced birther would call herself a feminist Bertrand”

A lot do.

I really don't know. Because I think there is an awful lot more to many of the issues than simple gender.

I agree with feminism as a concept however, it seems to have been hijacked by patronising women telling other women how to live their lives. Which is exactly what they accuse men of doing.
The women on this morning talking to those 2 walk on girls was a perfect example if this .

moreofaslummythanyummy you can be a feminist whilst not agreeing with individual feminists. I didn't watch it, but I don't like what you describ either. Every movement on earth has its loudmouth idiots!

Yes some women who are pro choice do call themselves feminists. They believe abortion harms women.

Im pro choice but even that is a spectrum. Do you have to support abortion for any reason for the total 9 months? Can you be a feminist but only believe in abortion inside 3 months or 4 months?

Going back to Morning TV. The Darts models were on talking about how they loved their job and were devestated about losing it. Another women, who identified herself as a feminist, with the best intentions, stated their jobs demeaned them as individuals, and women as a whole.

Then on the radio they were asked if they had daughters would they want them to do it?

I feel there is an undercurrent of "we know best" and a slight snobbishness around this subject in particular. Maybe, I'm wrong.

"Im pro choice but even that is a spectrum. Do you have to support abortion for any reason for the total 9 months? Can you be a feminist but only believe in abortion inside 3 months or 4 months?"

Yes, but clearly other feminists might want to debate that and explain why they feel otherwise. Which is fine, just as I'd like a feminist who wants abortion restricted to a certain timeframe to explain to me why they feel they're right.

The women they had on morning TV sound like they were chosen to be confrontational. It would be less "entertaining" tv if they didn't get people like that on.

I'm sure women in these jobs like it, otherwise they would presumably try to find something else to do. I don't think it's a very demeaning role to perform, but it does objectify women and alienate some from the sport.

Feminism seems to be peculiar in that people seem to take offence at what a single individual feminist says and then dismiss the whole movement out of hand.

I feel there is an undercurrent of "we know best" and a slight snobbishness around this subject in particular. Maybe, I'm wrong.

I don't think you are wrong. You see it anytime a woman says they enjoy porn and would support ethical porn, they shaveetc. We are still busy "you only enjoy it because you are a victim of male patriarchy" we haven't stopped to work out whether the only reason we don't think we like it is because historically as women we went supposed to and so it hasn't been generated to suit us. Or because it comes from bad porn we can't as woman actually like it.

We sneer at the women who have done these jobs making us every bit as part of the problem as the men who objectify them. Both are demeaning attitudes, only one is done under the guise of promoting feminism.

Who is sneering at them? Not me. You might be, but I'm not. Disagreeing with someone isn't the same as sneering at them or demeaning them.

Plus, it's irrelevant to me if you shave or support ethical porn. I would not tell you you're wrong or that you should stop doing so.

^Caroline Hall is another former gird girl, who now owns an agency providing staff for promotional events.

She told 5 live: "I think it's sad they've taken such extreme measures so quickly. I think they could have looked at ways of bringing the role more into line with modern times instead of scrapping it entirely. They could have looked at making it more equal between the sexes in the role.

"The question is 'what are people offended by? Are they offended by the role, that there is somebody standing there with sponsors over their clothing or is it the fact that it's only women doing it^

I think we're winning the wrong battles, none of the conversation is asking we they're aren't men drivers. It's constricting female options instead of opening them up.

Why there aren't female drivers

The media play a big part in this. Sounds like the format of that show pitched women against women, putting them in boxes.

I'm not that bothered if people call themselves equalists instead of feminists if they still sometimes recognise that there are situations where women are disadvantaged and got behind those causes instead of NAMALTing all over the shop. If you're going to be even handed (presumably in the belief that we have a status quo of equality already) then be so, instead of undermining on principle.

And I'm less bothered about those not calling themselves feminists than those that do call themselves feminists whilst centering men instead of women or promoting the individual choice over the structural picture. Those are really damaging.

Only imo, of course

@UpstartCrow If (the class of) men wanted (the class of) women to have equality and be treated with respect it would have happened by now.

Those used to privilege find equality feels like oppression.

Feminism seems to be peculiar in that people seem to take offence at what a single individual feminist says and then dismiss the whole movement out of hand.

Not at all peculiar. The same thing happens with religions/ political parties /vegans and most movements.

I think plenty of feminists sneer at women that they don't think are doing feminism correctly. They make out that they don't know their own minds and are victims or use gendered insults such as Handmaiden or Cool Girls. And liberal feminist is used as a derogatory term here.

All these people going "what about the Chippendales, eh? eh?" Are full of shit and they know they are.

It's not a level playing field. One sex has most of the power. So the sex with the power thinking they can harrass, objectify and buy the sex with less power is obviously not on.
As for this :
I saw it being about giving women choices and not criticising other women's choices, even if you disagreed with them
Well, no. I don't see it as my duty as a feminist to agree with whatever any woman chooses to do. I mean, do what you like, but if I think it's detrimental to the way women are perceived or treated I'm going to say so.
It doesn't matter what they call us. A woman's place is in the wrong. Fuck it. Give me a bad name any day-I've earned it!

@DioneTheDiabolist so the label feminist/feminism is toxic as a result?

“We sneer at the women who have done these jobs making us every bit as part of the problem as the men who objectify them. Both are demeaning attitudes, only one is done under the guise of promoting feminism.”

Sneering? My issue is never with the women who work in porn or prostitution or any “glamour” industry. My issue is with the people- usually men- who exploit them, make money out of them and cast them aside when they have outlived their usefulness.

I think expecting the same 'degree' of feminism and rights across the globe is the problem. In the west, we are talking about wages, opportunities and career paths. In many other countries it could be something like being born, staying alive and keeping the genitals.

WIthout a doubt there is so much work to be done to empower women across the globe. But is being super-aggressive the solution? And are women like Hilary Clinton/beyonce/other celebrities the correct sort of icons? The tone is as important as the message and we are messing up big time.

Am I a feminist as seen on papers/news channels? NO! Do I think there should be equality and that women deserve every bit of success and opportunity and pay as men? HELL YES!

@bluebells1 what would you categorise as "super-aggressive"?

As a result of what Assassinated? The sneering, the name calling, the seeming need to tell women what to do and anti-woman sentiment? I think all these things contribute to feminism being seen as toxic. Along with the peddling of dubious and out and out bullshit statisticss, anti-man sentiment and those who use feminism to be goady fuckers. All in all it contributes to the view that feminism is incredibly negative.

Which is a crying shame.