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Original poster

to think it's time to bin the word feminism

464 replies

whatnow123 · 31/01/2018 15:28

Good Morning Britain conducted two seperate polls. One asked the public if they identify as a feminist, 85% said no. The other asked if you believe in gender equality, 85% said yes.

Susanna Reid & Charlotte Hawkins, both feminists, stated they are the same thing. Clearly most people don't agree.

Regardless of the dictionary definition, the word "feminism" appears to be tainted. Does the word now do more harm than good by turning off both women and men from ideals we agree upon?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 05/02/2018 08:44

If over 90% of violent crime was committed by women, I would certainly expect to accept some responsibility for that and want to do my bit to change things.

BertrandRussell · 05/02/2018 08:45

“How many talented female scientists were made to scrub the lab floor?”

Well, we are certainly finding out that their names didn’t make it to the front page of the papers they contributed to........

ReliefOfChaos · 05/02/2018 08:46

I think the only honest answer to "Do you think men and women should be equal?" is "Well... depends what you mean by equal."

MasterWu · 05/02/2018 08:47

So this patriarchy then. If there was a patriarchy, why would they give women any rights at all? It doesn't make sense?

More to the point, there's irrefutable evidence that there isn't a patriarchy. (In GB 2018 anyhow) Why would feminists argue against what can clearly be seen?

BertrandRussell · 05/02/2018 09:01

“More to the point, there's irrefutable evidence that there isn't a patriarchy”

Is there? You’re not going to say that haveing a woman prime minister is evidence, are you?

makeourfuture · 05/02/2018 09:03

More to the point, there's irrefutable evidence that there isn't a patriarchy

If a man and a woman make statements, people assess the man"s statement as more true.

It is that embedded.

DeleteOrDecay · 05/02/2018 09:06

More to the point, there's irrefutable evidence that there isn't a patriarchy

Link?

Don't know why I'm bothering, this thread has descended into chaos as it is.

BertrandRussell · 05/02/2018 09:06

If there are more than a third women in any group, they are perceived to be in a majority.

makeourfuture · 05/02/2018 09:11

If there are more than a third women in any group, they are perceived to be in a majority.

This is the nature of it.

If it were some guys off in a tower somewhere you could go pull it down.

YoloSwaggins · 05/02/2018 09:18

@BertrandRussell, there were a couple of ongoing threads in Feminist chat about women "facilitating" their husbands careers.

Which was mainly women moaning about how they chose to give up their job to SAH and now, 10 years later, don't like how it's gone and realise it was a stupid decision - but claim they're "stuck" and can't say no to another move abroad/husband working 100 hour weeks because they've always said yes before, and they're such a powerless victim of the patriarchy.

They all seemed to want sympathy and I'm afraid I have 0. You got into that mess, you can get out of it. Not to mention that the "facilitation" isn't one-sided - their husbands are facilitating them being able to SAH!

Also, the amount of complaining about the mental load - "well I've always made all the meal plans and school appointments so I guess it will just have to stay that way forever, no point actually talking to my husband about it, may as well moan on the internet".

No offence but compared to children dying or global warming, these are not issues.

BertrandRussell · 05/02/2018 09:19

Yes, I think some people think of the patriarchy as a physical thing. A group of shadowy people controlling everything, like the Bildeberg Gruop or Opus Dei. It’s not. It’s just the way the society we live in has formed over the years to allow men to.hold more power. It’s not good for women, and it’s also not good for men who don’t fit into particular boxes. Organizations that expect men to be able to stay late or travel at very short notice, for example because the expectation is that they don’t have family responsibilities - or don’t care whether they see their children before bed time.That’s the patriarchy in action.

YoloSwaggins · 05/02/2018 09:25

Organizations often don't "expect" it - they ask it because they're moneymaking groups and want as much labour as possible. Men can say no. Women can also say no to working part time or quitting their jobs so the men have to do the childcare - but funnily enough many women actually want to SAH and work part-time. Which is fine, but then don't get annoyed when your husband feels like he's more available to work long hours, and does.

And you know, most of these problems can still be solved by TALKING to each other and agreeing your setup - not blaming the invisible patriarchy because "the decision wasn't really mine the patriarchy made me do it".

BertrandRussell · 05/02/2018 09:25

“BertrandRussell, there were a couple of ongoing threads in Feminist chat about women "facilitating" their husbands careers.

Which was mainly women moaning about how they chose to give up their job to SAH and now, 10 years later, don't like how it's gone and realise it was a stupid decision”

Are you absolutely sure that they were feminists talking? Because I have never heard a feminist say that facilitating a husband’s career is anything but a very risky thing to do, and should be aporoached with great caution.....It’s one of the many standpoints that make feminists really unpopular practically everywhere else on Mumsnet!

YoloSwaggins · 05/02/2018 09:29

The thread in Feminist Chat was called "Men whose lives are facilitated by women", and full of women talking about their own experiences and husbands.

They had all freely chosen that life themselves yet were blaming their husbands and complaining about inequality when they didn't like how it turned out.

MasterWu · 05/02/2018 09:32

Is there? You’re not going to say that haveing a woman prime minister is evidence, are you?

Ok let's see
Head of State = female (argument to be had that's luck of birth and I'd agree, but if we were a patriarchy that wouldn't be allowed)
Prime minister= female ("well that's only one, yadda yadda")
Home Secretary = female (arguably the most powerful politician after the PM. It's starting to Look less patriarchal all of a sudden)
Leader of the house= female.

So if the highest offices in the land are taken by women the patriarchy must have put them there? It's probably the judiciary where we'll find those patriarchal oppressors right?

Director of public prosecutions=female
Most senior police officer in E&W= female.

How, just how are we a patriarchy?

makeourfuture · 05/02/2018 09:33

they're moneymaking groups and want as much labour as possible

I don't agree with much of what you are saying but this statement is where many femenists get mad at me.

Our economic system is enmeshed into the problem.

YoloSwaggins · 05/02/2018 09:33

Full of stories like "I moved to X for my husband's career but didn't realise it would be really hard for me to get a job here and the nearest nursery is 20 miles away. Obviously none of this is my fault, it's blatant inequality and unfairness".

Nope. No-one expected you do that, and who on earth does something like move abroad without lining up or at least knowing about their next job?!

makeourfuture · 05/02/2018 09:38

Masterwu, that is not real power. Theresa May is powerful in a limited sense, much more than the average person, but in the grand scheme of things she (like all politicians) is just passing through.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 05/02/2018 09:42

I remember the thread yolo but I can't find it

Do you have a link

Ereshkigal · 05/02/2018 09:44

Feminism - it is control.

No. You were perfectly ok to get your tits out. You just weren't being filmed. Your tits were no platformed. Now normally I don't agree with no platforming so I think I might have to get a really really tiny violin out for you.

BertrandRussell · 05/02/2018 09:49

I think people are thinking about re patriarchy in too simplistic a way. And I agree that organisations are geared to making money. But so much of the work organisations do depends on unpaid or low paid work done by women. The SAHMs who facilitate men's careers are not just sitting around drinking cappuccinos. They are making it possible for those organisations to make money.

makeourfuture · 05/02/2018 09:49

Please. You are allowing your personal dislike of people who complain (you have been told all your life, probably by your parents, that whinging is bad) to cloud your view of larger issues.

Patriarchy is embedded in everything you know, that one particular person seems to be whinging and complaining has no relevance at all. It must be viewed within the larger context.

Feelitstill · 05/02/2018 09:51

I’m not sure if changing the name would change perceptions, I doubt it tbh.
For many ordinary women, femism is a load of white privileged women telling the rest of us how to live. Forget the trans issue for a minute, what are feminists saying today that they weren’t saying 40 years ago?
All it seems to be about is banning grid girls ( feminists got Miss World banned 30 years ago so nothing new there )
What are feminists actually doing for the average woman that other organisations ( unions etc ) wouldn’t do?
What is the purpose of feminism in 2018 United Kingdom?

MasterWu · 05/02/2018 09:57

But Bertrand, no one is forced to be a stay at home mum. No one is forced to have children.

As a pp Said, feminism seems to allow women to have excuses as to why they're not as successful as they'd like to be. It's all choice. Again not evidence of a "patriarchy"
If there were laws forcing women to have children I'd see your point.

There is no patriarchy.

makeourfuture · 05/02/2018 10:01

We speak to newborn babies differently if they are girls or boys. We colour code the world for them from as soon as their eyes can focus. We dress them differently. They see mommy washing up and daddy watching sport.

By the time we reach the age of comprehension it is programmed.