AIBU to ask why you for Brexit?

[BillySmut56]

I'm politically neautral on Brexit, it's a complicated issue, but I'm interested in the consequences that are coming out now. If you voted for Brexit, what were your reasons?

Cameron should never have called the referendum. Not without travelling to the regions and doing some research to see how people felt. He'd have run a mile if he had.

However as he did, Remainers shouldn't have talked down to Leavers as they did. I know of one or two people who were persuaded to change and vote Remain. And it wasn't by being told they weren't worthy of respect or they were too stupid to understand what it would do to the economy, that's for sure and for certain!

But Ghost, if you're to have any hope of a change of heart from the electorate to save the EU you want to keep so badly, you will have to swallow your pride and be more respectful of leavers.

However as he did, Remainers shouldn't have talked down to Leavers as they did. I know of one or two people who were persuaded to change and vote Remain. And it wasn't by being told they weren't worthy of respect or they were too stupid to understand what it would do to the economy, that's for sure and for certain!

Research shows that those with higher levels of educational attainment were more likely to vote remain and those with less qualifications vote leave. I don't think it is offensive to suggest that people working in certain professions have an understanding of the EU, regulation, trade and finance that will have certainly have impacted their decision. EU membership, is, afterall highly complex and most people ("the man on the street") shouldn't have been expected to understand the ramifications of leaving the EU. Its why manipulating people was so easy. If people are armed with facts they can see through the bullshit.

But Ghost, if you're to have any hope of a change of heart from the electorate to save the EU you want to keep so badly, you will have to swallow your pride and be more respectful of leavers.

Where have I been disrespectful to leavers?

If people voted for Brexit due to EU human right laws - she needs to make sure Britain gets away from the European Courts.
Not exactly.
The European Court of Human Rights and European Convention on Human Rights have nothing to do with the EU.

ignorance. As did those who voted to stay.

It should never have been put to a referendum in the form it was

David Cameron should fuck off to the far side of fuck and then fuck off some more for what he did.

Research shows that those with higher levels of educational attainment were more likely to vote remain and those with less qualifications vote leave.

You can get qualifications in anything. Why is someone considered intellectually superior because they have a Masters in Dance Therapy lol?

1. Regrettably I am not Nostrodamus even though some days I feel his age so unfortunately I can't give a precise date for the EU's demise but expect it to happen rather sooner than 1,000 years.

1. How do you know that millions believed it? I rather think that's what Remainers have convinced themselves to think. Makes them feel warm and fuzzy to think we are stupid enough. Sorry to disappoint.

1. I have heard of Cambridge Analytica but none of my reasons for voting Leave were influenced by it.

1. In that case, why do we have to pay 5% VAT on sanitary products? It was imposed on us by the EU. One of a million examples. Not so sovereign eh?

1. I have no problems with people coming to this country if they have useful skills and pay taxes. I do have problems with those who come here to commit crime. There are over 5,000 currently in our prisons from the EU.

1. I did not read the link. The Independent is risible. Our military are second to none. If this country goes to war I want that and all decisions made by the UK Government, not the EU. I want our own forces to defend this country, not some rag, tag and bobtail agglomeration from multiple EU countries, over which we have no control.

1. That article was dated last August, I have no idea if that is still the case or not.

I keep hearing this hackneyed trope about 'unelected and unaccountable' Eurocrats. Yet we're the ones stuck with an unelected head of state and house of Lords. How, prey tell, do I hold them to account?

How is first past the post remotely democratic or representative? Oh wait, its not!

Also, the EU's books have 'balanced'. Unlike THE UK's. I think you mean the audit hasn't been signed off...?

Regrettably I am not Nostrodamus even though some days I feel his age so unfortunately I can't give a precise date for the EU's demise but expect it to happen rather sooner than 1,000 years.

but its just your opinion right? A feeling? Given elections have taken place in Europe since the EU referendum returning pro EU parties/candidates it ain't gonna be soon is it?

2. How do you know that millions believed it? I rather think that's what Remainers have convinced themselves to think. Makes them feel warm and fuzzy to think we are stupid enough. Sorry to disappoint.

I think you are paranoid about being called stupid. Anywho,

New poll suggests a THIRD of Brits convinced by Vote Leave's claim Brexit would mean £350 million for the NHS

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/new-poll-suggests-third-brits-11027263

4. In that case, why do we have to pay 5% VAT on sanitary products? It was imposed on us by the EU. One of a million examples. Not so sovereign eh?

The government's Brexit white paper stated that UK parliament was sovereign. A number of UK supermarkets have covered the tampon tax so customers don't have to. I understand the tax is being scrapped after UK lobbying. No influence eh?

5. I have no problems with people coming to this country if they have useful skills and pay taxes. I do have problems with those who come here to commit crime. There are over 5,000 currently in our prisons from the EU.

I doubt many people come to the UK solely to commit crime TBH.

6. I did not read the link. The Independent is risible. Our military are second to none. If this country goes to war I want that and all decisions made by the UK Government, not the EU. I want our own forces to defend this country, not some rag, tag and bobtail agglomeration from multiple EU countries, over which we have no control.

Wasn't the head of the armed forces begging for money last week? The UK government has been cutting the armed forces. Second to none? Are you sure? If you think the independent is risible I'd be interested in your opinion of the pro Brxit papers like The Sun and Mail

7. That article was dated last August, I have no idea if that is still the case or not.

Granted, the governments position on anything Brexit related changes from one day to the next.

Every time I see the "higher levels of educational attainment voted for Brexit point I laugh" as the repetition of that fact rather highlights the inability of the person ,asking the post to think beyond the first info presented. This is supremely ironic as they are trying to show how they are of superior intelligence.

Without controlling for age or the relative proportions of the population that have higher educational qualifications at different ages you are saying nothing when putting forward the "higher education equals remain" point.

First let's say intelligence is normally distributed amongst people of the same age, which is not really contentious although one can debate it this isn't the place. We can also reasonably safely assume that younger people are no more intelligent, generally, than older people and vice versa. Yet younger people have a much higher likelihood of having a degee. Roughly 10-15% of people in my age bracket went to university or higher education institutions. Now it's 50%. Given we agreed, hopefully, that people are not getting smarter this implies easier access to higher education happened. We know this for a fact and history bears this out.

This strongly implies that there is a correlation between age and proportion with degrees completely unrelated to Intelligence. There is also a well known correlation between age and eurosceptic views. So the age dimension appears to completely explain the greater prevelance of higher education qualifications of people voting remain.

Right. Another point is that given that the referendum in the 70s involved the same people who overwhelming voted out this time and they overwhelmingly voted remain that time we have to assume something has changed their minds. Now they have a lived experience with the EU that the youth don't and perhaps that has altered their prior beliefs. Now this is interesting as what is worse, someone who changes mind with evidence or someone who parrots basic simplistic facts to imply a false link? I neatly arrive back where I started.

As I pointed out earlier those with higher qualifications are likely to work in professions that exposes them to the workings of the EU, trade, finance and this may well have played a factor in their voting preferences. I'm certainly looking beyond the statistics. We also know that despite immigration being a key factor for leave voters most leave voting towns have low levels of immigration. Those least impacted by the EU voted to leave, those with first hand experience of EU policies seemed to vote remain (cosmopolitan cities vs market towns).

As for older voters (those who voted in the 70's referendum) are likely to be retired/financially stable. There may also be an element of longing for a UK of yesteryear (we are all guilty of nostalgia). Younger voters will be working in industry, academia and seeing first hand the workings of the EU. They will also benefit from freedom of movement and have a more liberal mindset (as opposed to older voters being more conservative). Younger voters will be more at risk from Brexit economic downturn than older voters.

Every time I see the "higher levels of educational attainment voted for Brexit" point I laugh as the repetition of that fact rather highlights the inability of the person ,asking the post to think beyond the first info presented. This is supremely ironic as they are trying to show how they are of superior intelligence.

👍

Yep!
And yet the same people keep repeating this ad infinitum with no sense of irony.

If lazy thinking such as this is representative of 'the educated remainer' then it's no wonder they're largely ignored.

I voted 'in' in the 70s, and have no nostalgic feelings for the 'UK of yesteryear'. I had already experienced the 3 day week and in the decade that followed, I was made redundant 3 times. So they weren't really halcyon days and cricket on the green.
Europe brought us the necessary (but much derided) health and safety regulations, so important as private companies took over nationalised industry. It brought us workers rights and environmental targets, free trade and free movement. I wonder if our government(s) would have been so keen to act in the interest of the common people, if we had been outside the EU.
I despair of the numpties currently 'negotiating' our futures, and the media fuelling hatred between groups of people - young /old, brexit/remain, immigrant/British...

I do think that people should look at the restrictive immigration laws in Sweden before blaming the EU for our immigration 'problems'. As someone said earlier, our problem was created by our own politicians.

Research shows that those with higher levels of educational attainment were more likely to vote remain and those with less qualifications vote leave.

Isn't it more likely that those with less education and therefore on basic wages are more likely to be competing against people who come to the U.K. for jobs housing schools and doctors appointments that those in their ivory towers?

Their view is a different one -

Facts maybe to the contrary but it's equally valid.

Actually, who won Leave is still a point of debate. Although we can look at the stats and say remainers were more educated, the votes that swung Leave came from a section of society the pollsters thought would vote remain: southerners, middle-class, white. So although it makes good headlines to go on about Boston, northerners, elderly and the less educated, the bigger picture is still up for debate. Which is why when I hear it said 'people votes for x', 'we know what people voted for', like they KNOW why everyone voted, I get very upset.

As an exercise in being more respectful and less sarcastic, Ghost, imagine, just for a little while, what it would feel like if it were categorically proven that you were wrong on the EU. Let's say, the EU collapses in the next 5 years, bankrupting half the Euro-zone, or some such thing. It's good practice sometimes to find a more humble spot. YOU don't know your opinion is right with cast-iron certainty, so give other people some space to express their ideas.

Isn't it more likely that those with less education and therefore on basic wages are more likely to be competing against people who come to the U.K. for jobs housing schools and doctors appointments that those in their ivory towers?

No, because in the main leave voting areas had low levels of immigration. As a pp stated problems with housing, education etc are the responsibility of UK government policy.

Flytipper

I didn't have any strong views on the EU prior to the referendum. I do now that the social and economic fabric of the country are being torn up. I deemed a remoaner and a traitor for voicing my view.

I don't know my view is right. All I know is that the leave campaign was built predominantly on lies, the government is botching Brexit and every economic forecast makes dire reading. With that evidence I conclude Brexit will not deliver the things leavers hoped for. I'm happy to hear counter views beyond tabloid hyperbole that has been debunked time and again.

Isn't it more likely that those with less education and therefore on basic wages are more likely to be competing against people who come to the U.K. for jobs housing schools and doctors appointments that those in their ivory towers?

I agree, I do think the education argument comes up with some form of sneery moral superiority complex, I voted remain but the argument misses out a bit of detail that the younger generation are more likely to have gone to university but lets not pretend that makes them more intelligent about the benefits of the EU.

Its a complex shit show that is going to make us worse off, but GDP is somehow only a relevant metric when talking about the EU, not when a general election is due.

The talk of it being about immigration and a white working class men also ignores facts such as Boston and many many opinion pieces by first/second generation immigrants who are neither white nor male.

I voted leave and would again. My reasons:

1. I don't think a United States of Europe benefits the poorest. It dilutes their vote and voice.
2. Free movement of people creates an endless supply of cheap labour. This exploits both the working/underclass who are competing for limited work and the immigrants.
3. I was worried about an EU army. If the EU had an army, would they eventually not be part of NATO?

Of course it's my opinion. Whose opinion did you expect? Fred Blogs from No 36 Privet Drive?

Nope not paranoid - try not to assign your own insecurities to other people.

Well, yes, I suppose there were some Leavers who believed the NHS thing but there were many who did not.

How does the fact that some supermarkets are covering the 5% mean it isn't imposed by the EU? If it wasn't imposed there would be no need to cover it, duh.

There are thousands from the EU in our prisons. Assuming they are guilty, I don't give a fuck if they came here with the express intention of committing crimes or not, they did commit crimes, some serious and I hope they are kicked out when released from prison.

Yes, I believe our military are second to none even though funding has been cut. I read the Telegraph FYI.

Whatever.

We also know that despite immigration being a key factor for leave voters most leave voting towns have low levels of immigration.

This makes me laugh. Remainers continue to insist that immigration was a key factor for Leave voters despite being told otherwise but then you say that most leave voting towns have low immigration levels. So which is it?

I'm bored now. Bored of trying to explain my reasons for voting the way I did and hoping for a reasonable discussion. Bored of reading incessant whining and moaning from Remainers on this subject over the last eighteen months.

Over and out.

I voted Leave. I'm young (ish), degree educated (if that is even relevant), work in an MPs constituency office but used to work in the City. I always thought that I would vote Leave, but I waited until the evening to actually vote....I wrestled with it most of the day.

For me, it was nothing to do with immigration or ££££ extra for the NHS. I don't want us to leave Europe and pull up the draw bridge. I want us to be able to make our own decisions in a globalised world. But I have to agree that the EU is unsustainable in its present form.

I like the direct contact constituents have with our MP. This is democracy. I don't know if my decision was correct. Nobody does. Telling people they are stupid, ignorant, racist etc does not help the debate. We are where we are and MPs should support the PM and her team so they can negotiate effectively not hamstring her and this process.

I agree, I do think the education argument comes up with some form of sneery moral superiority complex, I voted remain but the argument misses out a bit of detail that the younger generation are more likely to have gone to university but lets not pretend that makes them more intelligent about the benefits of the EU.

Its more likely that young people at university are exposed to EU policy, exercise freedom of movement, live in metropolitan areas etc and thus see membership in a positive light.

1. I don't think a United States of Europe benefits the poorest. It dilutes their vote and voice.

United States of Europe is cliched, tired tabloid hyperbole. First past the post dilutes voters voices.

2. Free movement of people creates an endless supply of cheap labour. This exploits both the working/underclass who are competing for limited work and the immigrants.

A hard Brexit will turn the UK into a low wage tax haven.

3. I was worried about an EU army. If the EU had an army, would they eventually not be part of NATO?

This was addressed upthread. There is no EU army.

Before you go, Silver, could you tell us what you think about the current debate over the transition. Rees-Mogg says it would be a terrible thing if the UK were to continue to take new EU ruling without having a vote. I'm wondering how a Leaver understands that position.