To find my gentle parenting friends infuriating?

[Littlemissmuff]

NC as this may be outing.

I have 3 friends, all have toddlers between 2 and 3 years old.
Our children play together frequently and their parenting style is driving me mad.
One of them literally never says no to her son, he can hit our childre or destroy something but instead she insists on talking nicely to him even though he is definitely not listening.
Another one has a huge moan several times a day about how tired she is and she fed up of her toddler getting her up all night to breastfeed; however won't do anything about it and won't take any suggestions such as water or night weaning and states that it is cruel and our roles as mothers are to cuddle our children all night if we have to if that's what they demand even at age 3.
I don't care how they parent their child but I do when it's affecting my son, he is forever getting pushed about by these kids now and he is constantly seeing them doing really dangerous behaviour and "risk taking" without any parent intervention which then makes me look awful to him if i tell him no if he tries to copy them climbing on to the TV stand or windowsill.
I don't know what research shows, but my god these children are so much more naughty than any other children I know.
Aibu to end our playdates even though it might end our friendship?

Whoops wrong thread! Sorry.

It's all very well not being lazy and having a respectful conversation about exactly why a child needs to do something. But if teachers do that for 30 kids every time they ask why there would be no lessons taught.
So glad you get that.

As another poster said there is a difference between appropriately challenging authority and being an argumentative brat who disrupts learning.

And yes to the idea that all children will have had something said to them at school or had some sanction or other.
I was a well behavrd child but you know what, i'm human and even good kids occasionally need reminding to focus in a lesson they don't enjoy. Even good kids can forget to bring homework in and get a break detention, not because of poor attitude but because they didn't pack foe the right day when they got in from am dram/sports team/ choir the night before.

I started looking into parenting styles recently (dc has just turned one,) and I found this whole gentle thing a bit much too. If you can't tell your child "no" when they have bitten another child then I think it's gone a bit far. Some styles also discourage parents from explaining things like why we don't bite or hit or why we can't play with the contents of the bin. Apparently we should just tell them that we hear that they are upset. I just find that odd. I remember when I was little wanting to do something but understanding why I shouldn't do it. My want to do it was outweighed by the risks of doing so. Those skills to weigh things up are important, and we use those skills our whole lives.

I had an argument with my MIL about this recently. She is an educational psychologist and an expert on such matters. She is the most gentle parent I know. She pulled her children out of nursery because the nursery wanted them to do reading time and they didn't want to.
Her 4 children are now mid20s to Mid30s - none of them (bar my DH) have or have ever had jobs. They aren't studying and just live at home with their mum, playing video games and expecting her to clean up after them. None of them (including DH until I met him) ever say thank you or please. As in I will buy them a very expensive meal and no one will say thank you at all (despite hints from DH). The other day I arrived at MILs who has quite a few steep stairs up to the front door. Had 1 yo dc asleep in heavily loaded pram. I am 7 months pregnant and had bags. I rang the bell and BIL (almost 30) answered the door and then just stood there watching me struggle to get in the door for about 5 minutes. Not even a hint at help. They all talk like babies and say stuff "buttt I donnttt waaaaaaaannnaaaa" perhaps cute for a 5 year old but not cute when you are pushing 30 and the subject is taking your brand new puppy (that your mum bought for you) for a walk.
But it's a good job they didn't have to do any traumatic reading time at nursery!!!

I would like to add that I am definitely not the type for strict "respect your elders" type parenting (how Can I tell my child to respect his elders when 4 of his uncles are grown up man-children who still don't know how to say thank you or be helpful in any way at all?).
I was brought up in a home (and went to a school) where questioning adults was encouraged. But it's the bullshit that if little Timmy wants to bite and ride his bike around Wagamamas and not say please or thankyou then we all just have to put up with it or we are crushing his spirit.

Ugh god op I've been where you are. In the end I stopped making plans with that family and it was such a shame because they were incredibly supportive when I went through my divorce. The final straw was their child hurting mine on purpose and in a ore meditated way.

I think the op was quite clear she wasn't judging the bf - just the whining about it but ime with these types it's part of a wider reluctance to put boundaries in - and I say that as a co sleeping extended bf Mum!

thiskittenbarks
Bit worried about how much misinformation about gentle parenting is out there if your research led you to thinking it meant you can't tell your child no. As previous posters have said that isn't what gentle parenting suggests.
Thats not meant to sound snotty btw just worrying thats what people are finding when they look into it.
Your DH family sound like a nightmare, I feel for you.

@KoalasAteMyHomework I know not all but some Schools of thought on genital parenting that I have come across do say not to say no.

Genital parenting!! Best autocorrect fail ever @thiskittenbarks
Yes the internet is an ocean of misinformation sometimes. Perhaps some people to advocate the don't say no approach then, under gp, I just haven't come across it. Tho to be fair if I had then like you I would have decided that it wasn't for me. Sarah Ockwell smiths stuff is good,makes a lot more sense to me.

Any style of parenting can be done badly. I’m sure there are people who have done gentle parenting badly. I suspect the ones whose kids are running amok and the parents aren’t doing anything to stop them are doing whatever style of parenting they’re doing badly.

This thread really reminds me of this cartoon....

Some posters: GP is lax parenting, you're not supposed to ever tell your children no!

Posters who practice GP: no that's categorically not the case. Boundaries are expected and consistently enforced. Gentle parents regularly tell their children No. Boundaries are just enforced through positive reinforcement methods rather than negative ones (punishment).

Other posters: well I think never saying No to your children is setting them up to be selfish entitled brats who can't hold down a job

This cartoon

Love the cartoon abso! Very appropriate.

I love Dilbert cartoons

What you are describing is not gentle parenting. It’s bad parenting. And you are fine to stop hanging out with them - who would blame you? - but it’s a gross misrepresentation of gentle parenting.

The point about not being negative isn't because negativity will crush the soul of the poor child or because everything has to be wonderful and rainbows all the time, it's simply because giving a negative response only tells the child what not to do, which is only half of the story.
Bertie

My language wrt 'crushing spirits' was a little tongue in cheek. My main point was to suggest that the OP should turn the tables on her friends by using their own terminology.

For permissive parents, I suspect the fear that confronting the child will result in deep emotional scarring is why they will not say no. I suspect some have idealised childhood, and certainly they have a very unrealistic notion of how resilient their children really can become, and should become. They ignore the importance of resilience, and reject the role of cultivating it and encouraging it in their children.

Great post by DrWhy:
It doesn’t mean no boundaries it means enforcing them kindly and with respect.
With true GP, you have to do a lot of anticipation, a lot of thinking about your choice of words, and you have to be vigilant at all times if you want to avoid what I will call reactive parenting or blithely insouciant parenting. So you give a pep talk before you take the 2 or 3 year old into the supermarket for instance, and you catch them being good while there. You try to avoid having to do a weekly shop at a time when your child may be tired or hungry or has had a lot of stimulation that day - basically avoid flashpoints and take the child's reality into account, and communicate expectations clearly. It involves consistent training in the form of input from the parent. There is a good deal of modelling of respectful behaviour.

It's all a form of scaffolding.

I understand the example of the water splashing and the natural consequence of missing the session as they have to go home and get dry clothes.....

I do too. But surely another natural consequence of poor behaviour is that others don't like it. And are irritated by it. And, at the more extreme end, won't like you any more and won't want to spend time again. And most of these "gentle" approaches seem deliberately to shield children from these types consequences....which I don't think is a good thing. Because that's how children learn what is and isn't generally acceptable, surely? Take the water example. If all the child hears is "we are going home because you are wet" and not "you don't throw things around on purpose because other people just don't like it" then they have not learned the lesson that their behaviour impinges on others.

Absofrigginlootly
I think it's largely been more nuanced than that. Peoplr are sharing different experiences they have had where people claim to do gentle parenting.

Do i think some versions of it can be done well?

do i think there are a lot of people who seem to end up nurturing argumentative children who feel the world owes them an explanation for every little instruction? Yes.

Do i think that some gentle parenting explanationa miss the point? Yes.

E.g. you spill water, first time it might be an accident. 'We have to go home now to change' is fine.
2nd time ... 3rd time. Then actually it becomes 'don't tip water everywhere because actually it'd disruptive and other people don't like it, you've been told so do as you're told'. A lot of behaviour doesn't need a convoluted reason. We eat with a knife and fork because that's how we eat and it's polite. If you face smash your food then people with you're at best odd and ar worst rude.

*Do i think some versions of it can be done well?
Yes

YY math it wasn't meant as a criticism, just needed a quick wording. The dilbert cartoon is great. Often how I feel on these long threads :o

I think the huge differences in interpretation of gentle parenting depends where you come to it from. Ive already said that in hindsight I was drawn to it because I was quite anxious about the idea of having to be strict and punish so it was almost like I felt here was a get out clause. However on another hand I also think that most of the principles about encouraging communication and cooperation instead of obedience/what you're told make perfect sense and I believe strongly in them.

How do gentle / permissive parents deal with pre teens? Is unlimited internet access just fine? 12 year olds able to access hardcore porn because mummy won't say no? Chilling

Errrr once again, gentle parenting does NOT equal being permissive.
My teens do not have access to porn, they dint have unlimited access to the internet. Actually they have a much RESTRICTED access than most of their peers.

On the other aide, Ds1 is currently cleaning his room and hooevering. Because that’s a normal thing to do. It’s nicer to have a clean bedroom an be able to find your stuff. I didn’t need to tell him, let alone force or threaten him to do so.

Natalia in which way the so called normal parenting technique allow a young child not to be shield from the annoyance of other people if they spill water deliberately?
Because I got the feeling the standard answer would be to go back home and to punish them.
Which would have a very similar effect than taking the child back home because they are wet through.

Feel like some of this thread is just going round in circles now. Have found the different viewpoints interesting but some people are being a bit ridiculous with their examples.