To find my gentle parenting friends infuriating?

[Littlemissmuff]

NC as this may be outing.

I have 3 friends, all have toddlers between 2 and 3 years old.
Our children play together frequently and their parenting style is driving me mad.
One of them literally never says no to her son, he can hit our childre or destroy something but instead she insists on talking nicely to him even though he is definitely not listening.
Another one has a huge moan several times a day about how tired she is and she fed up of her toddler getting her up all night to breastfeed; however won't do anything about it and won't take any suggestions such as water or night weaning and states that it is cruel and our roles as mothers are to cuddle our children all night if we have to if that's what they demand even at age 3.
I don't care how they parent their child but I do when it's affecting my son, he is forever getting pushed about by these kids now and he is constantly seeing them doing really dangerous behaviour and "risk taking" without any parent intervention which then makes me look awful to him if i tell him no if he tries to copy them climbing on to the TV stand or windowsill.
I don't know what research shows, but my god these children are so much more naughty than any other children I know.
Aibu to end our playdates even though it might end our friendship?

[murmuration]

But surely another natural consequence of poor behaviour is that others don't like it. And are irritated by it. And, at the more extreme end, won't like you any more and won't want to spend time again. And most of these "gentle" approaches seem deliberately to shield children from these types consequences....

See, my interpretation of gentle parenting is the exact opposite - the whole idea is to emphasise how the child's actions affect others, such that they don't spill water in the future because they feel bad about it. But the reason they feel bad is not because they were punished, but because the parent worked to deliberately tie the child's innate desire to please parents to their sense of empathy. So it's self-running - parent doesn't need to see it for the bad feeling to be a deterrant.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if those doing fearful or ineffective gentle parenting actually have a point - done effectively, it can be an incredibly powerful force. And it could be used for good or for ill. You're manipulating a child's emotions by using their desire to please you. How many threads do we see here by adult women doing things they dislike not because they're afraid of being punished but because they're afraid their parent (usually a mother) will cry? The narcissistic parent ties the child's desire to please a parent (obligation) to empathy with the parent (guilt). Just add some punishment or love withdrawal and you've got the toxic parent trifecta of fear-obligation-guilt - that can control children into adulthood and sometimes from beyond the grave! If you're playing with obligation and guilt, you had better play carefully. These are powerful tools. But done with good will, and ensuring you tie empathy to others (but not so strongly you create a people-pleaser) instead of yourself, and that you let the desire to please the parent relax as the child grows and turn it into a desire to be a good person/be viewed well in society/etc you can get well-behaved kids.

But it could in fact be more frought with potential for error than traditional methods, I'm thinking - done ineffectively, any parenting method produces children who run riot. Done effectively, they produce well-behaved kids. But done too intensely, punishment can either create fearful withdrawn children or those who are excellent at looking good but being bad when they can get away with it. Yet done too intensely, gentle parenting can create a long-lasting variety of different emotional ills.

[Queenofthedrivensnow]

Murmur I think the theory is great but children don't learn empathy at birth it's a learned reaction as far as I. An see

[murmuration]

No, empathy is innate - but you can train it. They've shown that babies have 'mirror neurons' that make them sad if they see a sad face and happy if they see a happy face. Toddlers will be mostly in their own world, but you can train them to pay attention to these neural signals (which will eventually turn into empathy as we think of it) and experience the emotion more fully because you act sad too, or you can train them out of it - comforting your child while the other child wails after your child hit it, for exampe.

[KoalasAteMyHomework]

@murmuration I think you raise some good points. As you say, all kinds of parenting can create problems if done ineffectively. I think its finding a balance. I want my son to consider how his actions affect others but equally not to be a complete people pleaser. This is why parenting I think is so hard - and why different methods of doing things are so contentious.
My son is nearly 3 and I am a great believer that he learns by seeing how I, and those close to him, behave. Seeing me consider others but also standing up for myself, hearing me say please and thank you etc. I personally don't think shouting at him for something he is developmentally unable to do is the way forward - if I shout then I think it teaches him that its how to deal with a situation he doesn't like (thats not to say I never lose my temper. I have done and normally feel bad after!).
I understand at this age if he knocks over his cup (his body awareness is still bad) its not strictly his fault so I wouldn't punish him as such. He would watch and hopefully learn to help clean it up (he is actually starting to do this now). However if he is doing it at age 8 on purpose then its different - I will adapt my handling of situations as he grows.

[murmuration]

peng - I think you're right. But with the 'going and thinking' you're hoping that the child will about the other kid and feel bad, and not about what a mean parent you are. You can shape this by speaking at other times, and emphasing things outside the exact punishment episode, helping to shape their moral compass.

In gentle parenting the empathy is done directly in the moment, and what the 'hope' is, is that the desire to please will eventually transfer to some other target than you, enabling them to grow into an independent adult with their own moral compass.

So both approaches have some element of 'hope' in them, that the parent tries to direct at other times, I think both directed towards the child developing a moral sense of their own. I think they can both be effective, and you simply can't inject morality into someone else, you do have to leave it to 'hope'.

[catkind]

Murmuration, lovely thoughtful posts. You make a lot of sense.

[Queenofthedrivensnow]

I do somewhat agree with murmur. We do a lot of talking about behaviour but not when there has been an incident and lots of positive reinforcement 'it was really kind to hand in that little toy we found and not keep it - somebody might be really sad they lost it'

We do a lot of reflecting on others behaviour too and what was thoughtful and kind and generous and what was a bit mean and selfish etc etc. We also talk about everybody having slightly different reactions to different actions. I have to do this a lot with dd1 because she is very thick skinned.

I would label my parenting as anything though.

[zeezeek]

Sometimes they are going to need to do what they are told, simply because they are told to do it.

This. My children have grown up with the message that I'm an adult, they are the child, therefore they do what they are told. And that goes for other adults at school as well. Can't be bothered with all that explaining behaviour crap. We were sent to boarding schools at 8 and the ethos there was do as you're told, or suffer the punishment. Whilst DH and are are not quite that harsh, it's the basic premise of our parenting (except we don't call it parenting or a style - it is having and raising children).

[Absofrigginlootly]

My children have grown up with the message that I'm an adult, they are the child, therefore they do what they are told. And that goes for other adults at school as well. Can't be bothered with all that explaining behaviour crap. We were sent to boarding schools at 8 and the ethos there was do as you're told, or suffer the punishment.

You know that this approach if never balanced with nuanced discussions about times when it's ok not to "follow orders" and how it's to enforced ones own appropriate personal boundaries sets children up to be targets of abusers?

Teaching children to always blindly and acceptingly unquestioningly follow orders from adults is a risky message imo

[Absofrigginlootly]

On the subject of children's moral development.... I've studied cognitive developmental neuroscience in my Psychology degrees and the research suggests that human infants possess an innate capacity to incode and process morality and empathy (this is the essence of higher order frontal lobe processing). BUT it requires the appropriate input the set up the right synaptic connections. Children do need to be "taught" morality. Although the neurological structures are in place they need the input or they become taken over by another function. In the same way that infants born profoundly deaf have the areas of their brain pre-set up to process auditory input. In the absense of any auditory input these brain areas eventually get taken over by other processes and never become specialized in auditory processing as they were originally destined to. If that makes sense?

Therefore it is inperitive that children are given information from their parents about empathy/morality: "Xxx is crying because you hit him with that toy. That hurt him and made him feel sad. You need to say sorry because that was unkind".

They also need to see as part of every day life parents acting with kindness and empathy. Family interactions are so important here. Newborn infants initially learn about emotional responsiveness through the responses parents give to their distress. Are they soothed? Held? Comforted? Or left to cry it out? Are there emotional security needs met? Do they feel safe and loved? Or are thy ignored and neglected? Attachments play a huge role in early moral and empathy development.

[zeezeek]

Teaching children to always blindly and acceptingly unquestioningly follow orders from adults is a risky message imo

It's nit risky at all. Children are taught from a very young age what is and isn't abuse and what to do if they feel unsafe. It is more risky to bring up a child with no respect for others, who argue with authority and who can never develop and sustain relationships. I want my children to be successful in life and that will not happen if they spend their time questioning adult decisions. There is plenty of time for them to argue when they are adult. At the moment, their job is to do as they are told.

[Absofrigginlootly]

Parents who are permissive and do not teach or allow children to draw connections between their actions and the consequences on other people are doing them a huge disservice in terms of their development of empathy.

Gentle parenting does not advocate this style of permissive parenting. It is very much focused on the development of empathy, through the parents responses to their childs behaviour in an empathetic way.

You might say something like "I understood you were angry when xxx took your toy but you cannot hit him because you felt angry. That made him cry and that wasn't kind." Then ensure your DC days sorry. Then you might follow it up with a discussion about alternative ways they could have responded like telling rhe other cxhild they needed to wait their turn, asking for the toy back, involving a parent in the dispute etc. Then giving the child lots of positive praise when they implement these alternatives next time.

[Absofrigginlootly]

zeezeek there is a middle ground between blind obedience and constant obstruction that you can provide children with

[Lilyhatesjaz]

I was quite strict with my 2 when they were little no always meant no although I was always careful not to say no if it wasn't really so if they asked for something in the shops I thought about it properly as it could be a yes or a we will get some for later as if I said no I never changed my mind.
I was very firm that there was no hurting and I did punish some times, normally no computer games for a day or going home from toddler group.
As they got older they were really well behaved and I've not needed to get angry with them in ages.
DD 16 said to me the other day when she was talking about some friends "we don't have rules in our family do we" no we don't we don't need them.
With the water situation I would have got the child to help clean up I would have said that was a really silly thing to do and unless it was really cold I would have left them in wet clothes for a while.

[Badumdumdum]

Only read 12 pages but....
If you never say no to your kids they'll habe trouble understanding boundaries in sexual relationships.. And thats mot unacceptable.

I think some people might think i 'gentle parent'. In reality I'm too frigging worn out and stressed to deal properly with all demands. But I'm working on being better.

[NotReadyToMove]

Well gentle parenting is NOT about never saying NO.
I think it has been explained again nd again in this thread.
Gentle parenting is based on respect for other people. So really no worries about understanding boundaries and respect with8n soul relationship

Besides, as it has been mentioned before, gentle parenting is actually harder work than ‘normal’ parenting. If you are too tired to deal with all the demands, then you are unlikely to gentle parent your child.....

[everythingisempty]

Why do we have to have all of these parenting labels?
Aren't we all able to follow our instincts, reflect on what we did and didn't like about our own upbringings and plough forward?

It's amazing to me that so many people want to put themselves into schools of parenting rather than enjoy the creative process of such, staying flexible to the needs of the child and family at any given time.

How has anyone got the time to read all these parenting books anyway- aren't we all just exhausted auto piloting parents, learning as we go?

[mathanxiety]

KERALA1 Sat 27-Jan-18 09:22:33
How do gentle / permissive parents deal with pre teens? Is unlimited internet access just fine? 12 year olds able to access hardcore porn because mummy won't say no? Chilling

Gentle and permissive are two completely different things. Gentle parents say no.

With gentle parenting, you will have managed to instill your values in children by the time they are pre teens by means of solid two-way communication. You will have conveyed to them that they are worthy of respect and that others are also worthy of respect. You will have discussed peer behaviour and they will understand why you find some choices to be poor. They will see you, hopefully, at that age as someone they can talk to, who is not a pearl clutching, knee jerk reactionary but someone who is empathetic and reliable and respectful, and who can cope with whatever life throws at you. They will understand that while there are many who think using porn is fine and dandy, there are many excellent reasons not to join that mob.

I suspect that it is indifferent parents who do not lead by example or who do not understand that there are consequences to their own choices of 'entertainment' and speech on the topic of women, women's bodies, and relationships, whose children are sucked into online porn viewing and risky behaviour.

[BertieBotts]

Actually we don't really limit Internet access. I'd rather talk about the dangers than lock them away - he could easily get around blocks anyway. We'll talk about porn as part of the sex talk because I think it's important.

[AVoiceInTheCrowd]

This has been a fascinating, and long, read!

My fundamental opinion: being a parent to a toddler is, at least some of the time, extremely challenging - however you choose to do it. (I don't think I've ever met an 'indifferent' parent - in one of my many judgemental moments I may think I've spotted one in public, though I actually believe it's fairly unreasonable judge without getting to know at least a few things about that parent's life).

In terms of the OP - it sounds like a really difficult situation that you're in. Even though others on this thread (myself included) can clearly relate to that feeling of diverging from your friends on parenting issues, it's probably impossible to give really helpful advice without knowing a little more background (which, understandably, you might not want to provide) - like how long you've known each other, and what kind of social support you yourself have.

My own advice would be to try to talk to your friends as individuals rather than in a group to get a sense of how possible it might be to change the current situation. Perhaps on neutral territory like in a cafe or, even better, on a walk - something about being outside often helps with emotional conversations (I think). If you were able to get a conversation going about, say, comparing notes on what you each found challenging about parenting, that might help pave the way for doing things differently in group situations. Or you could simply say 'I find it difficult to know what to say to my son about why he's not allowed to do things that your child's allowed to do - is it possible for us to agree on a few ground rules for play dates?'.
With your 'extended breast-feeding friend', I personally do not think it's unreasonable to feel annoyed/ overburdened by hearing about an unchanging situation so often - it's not as though you've described saying/ doing anything to her as a basis for your feelings (which could be then labelled as 'reasonable' or 'unreasonable' by others). I'd hope that all the 'gentle parents' out there, who are probably generally fairly concerned with validating feelings in their children (whilst aiming to moderate actions) would extend that same courtesy to fellow parents. I personally am a great fan of the importance of acknowledging feelings, but would never in a million years call myself a 'gentle parent' - it seems to stray far too close to suggesting that many others are 'ungentle', despite providing stable and essentially loving homes.
I would aim to, again, have a one to one conversation with your very sleep-deprived, nipple-chafed friend, and say 'it looks like you're going through a bit of a hard time of it at the moment'; then encourage her to talk about things at as much length as she can - without giving any advice. Often, by talking through their own problems at their own pace (given enough space to do so), people come up with their own solutions - these tend to stick much better than the best possible advice from others. It might also mean that she mentions it less from that point on - this also often seems to happen quite a lot after people feel properly heard.

Huge luck to you. Trying to change the dynamic of a group that you are in is incredibly hard, but can be possible - we are more than just members of tribes.

[CatsAndCairngorms]

murmuration You raise some interesting points but I'm not sure about your discussion of narcissism etc - I don't agree with your premise that gentle parents use the child's desire to please the parent as a tool for creating empathy; if anything I see it as a more 'mainstream' (very much in quotation marks!) parenting tool to say things like that "that makes Mummy sad."

In gentle parenting it would be - "how do you feel when...?" If DD is unkind to DS, all it generally takes is for me to say "imagine DS did that to you, how would it make you feel?" and she stops. I would never say "it makes me sad when you behave like that".

By the way, I think you'd find the research into emotion coaching interesting - lots of studies to show its utility. And acknowledgement of the child's emotion is a huge thing in gentle parenting, and, I've found, one of the most useful things in my dealing-with-meltdowns toolbox

[mathanxiety]

Same here Bertie.

I agree on that point too, Cats.