To find my gentle parenting friends infuriating?

[Littlemissmuff]

NC as this may be outing.

I have 3 friends, all have toddlers between 2 and 3 years old.
Our children play together frequently and their parenting style is driving me mad.
One of them literally never says no to her son, he can hit our childre or destroy something but instead she insists on talking nicely to him even though he is definitely not listening.
Another one has a huge moan several times a day about how tired she is and she fed up of her toddler getting her up all night to breastfeed; however won't do anything about it and won't take any suggestions such as water or night weaning and states that it is cruel and our roles as mothers are to cuddle our children all night if we have to if that's what they demand even at age 3.
I don't care how they parent their child but I do when it's affecting my son, he is forever getting pushed about by these kids now and he is constantly seeing them doing really dangerous behaviour and "risk taking" without any parent intervention which then makes me look awful to him if i tell him no if he tries to copy them climbing on to the TV stand or windowsill.
I don't know what research shows, but my god these children are so much more naughty than any other children I know.
Aibu to end our playdates even though it might end our friendship?

There's a funny thing about the worry about spoiled and entitled kids- there's less of the really serious bad stuff that kids do, such as crime and teen pregnancy, now than there was when we were kids. The data is quite clear- this is certainly true if you're a parent now, and probably true if you're a grandparent. If parenting is significantly affecting those things, keeping in mind that correlation is not causation, more recent parents are doing a better job than parents back in the day.

The more nebulous stuff, like entitlement and disrespect, are harder to judge, because the definition of those things might change over time and in different places, and nobody's actually keeping reliable data. But if we're getting more kids who act entitled and maybe mouth off and less serious issues like violent crime- yes, please, let's have more of that!

Changes in youth crime and pregnancy are subject to wider societal changes beyond parenting.

Preganancy rates can be attributed to better sex education, long term reliable contraception, access to abortion, and less time hanging out and more time on digital communication.

Youth crime can be attributed to improved attendence and pastoral care in education, low unemployment and reduced absolute poverty (although benefit changes have reduced some of the long term improvements). Improved security in cars will reduce crimed such as joy riding. Consumer changes mean there are less items of value such as CDs and jewellery worth stealing and selling on.

YANBU
Oh boy , they are making a rod for their own backs, raising entitled little darlings.
I wouldn't allow their kids to push mine about I'm afraid.
I would reprimand / remind if I felt it was necessary

Well gentle parents definitely like really long explanations don't they, judging by some of the posts here - no wonder their kids switch off

I do think sometimes it takes longer to explain what you're doing than it does to do it, but this is definitely a danger of 'gentle' parenting. I could be wrong, but I think that the book "How to Talk To Kids So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk" basically espouses a gentle parenting approach (without calling it that, that I noticed - but they are definitely anti-punishment). They have a chapter on how less is more - things like the child comes in and leaves the door open. Instead of going on a long explanation of heat and cold and energy consumption, one can just say "Door!" The child looks about, trying to figure out why the parent is saying 'door', sees the open door, realises the problem, and closes the door.

My approach is in the heat of the moment to be short and sharp, and later at a quieter time I may sit with DD and have discussions about why/how about behaviours, what I did, what she did, what she felt and so on. But only once she was old enough for that to actually mean anything.

I've fallen down an internet rabbit-hole of parenting style quizzes, and curiously have not actually seen 'gentle' listed anywhere. I've found Attachment, Authoritarian, Authoritative, Democratic, Flexible, Lax, Permissive, Positive, Rigid and Strict. Apparently I'm Attachment and Authoritative and Democratic and Rigid and Strict. The one site that differentiated 'positive' from 'authoritative' nearly made me lose the will to live in reading the 'positive' parenting approaches - I got bored half way through, just reading a quiz answer! I wonder if I may not be quite as 'gentle' as I thought...

It's quite tricky to prove that parenting does or doesn't cause any given effect, because parenting is affected by a lot of other variables like socioeconomic status and mental health. And you can't (ethically or practically) randomly assign some families to gentle parenting and some families to other methods and see how the results differ.

Example: poorer parents here in the US are more likely to smack their kids than parents in higher socioeconomic strata. Kids of higher socioeconomic status tend to have better outcomes. Is that because of the smacking, or because of some other difference between parents of high and low socioeconomic status? If parents of low socioeconomic status make an effort to not smack their kids, will that make a difference to their outcomes? To get really good data, you might want to randomly assign families to smack and not smack, and look at how their kids turn out. But you can't ethically (or, probably, practically) do that.

And that's for smacking- something that it's pretty easy to say if it's going on or not. What about something in more of a gray area, like preferring reward over punishment, but occasionally using punishment? I'm not even sure how you would collect reliable data on that, other than videotaping a family for a period of time. Then you've got to find enough families to consent to that to have a decent sample size for your study.

We can, however, say that a trend toward gentler parenting has not created serious bad behavior trends in kids to such an extent that it overwhelms other effects. If it did that, we wouldn't see the declines in crime and teen pregnancy that we have.

The gentle parents I have met do punish their children they just don't call it that. Taking away a toy that is being thrown or leaving somewhere because a child is hitting is the same whatever you want to call it. I think most parents are gentle most of the time and occasionally lose their temper - even gentle parents.
The problem they have is when there is no natural consequence to a situation. There was a parent at one of the toddler groups I went to who would stay in the house for as long as their child wanted if they didn't want to leave. Not so bad if it was just a toddler group but what about doctors appointments etc. She was the same with her older child and would often let people down who had paid for her place at parties or turn up late when you met them. Gentle parent sometimes can mean pita to people around them.

bluemirror- but that's when we use positive parenting techniques.
Parenting is not all about steering behaviour using consequences for bad actions.
Positive parenting uses the influence of guiding a child through enjoyable interaction.
Focus on the positive and the negative behaviour becomes less.
Keeping life with a child upbeat, happy and fun then children will want to be useful/feel responsible and trustworthy.

I can't remember the last time I used any negative consequences.
We honestly rarely have a cross word in our home.

I think the difference Blue is that with gentle parenting the "punishment" if you want to see it as that is directly what it takes to stop the crime or prevent a repetition. You don't waste energy at a complete tangent trying to reinforce time out or taking away toys or whatever.

It occurred to me that another thing to add to upstart/elton's descriptions is something a good parent of either school would be doing.

The next time they go to the group, they remind the child to be careful with the water. And hover close when they're drinking to make sure they don't get the chance to repeat the behaviour. Prevention is better than cure.

I have to say I’ve enjoyed this thread because for the first time, I’ve actually met people who are happy to put boundaries with their kids but do not use punishments etc...
I remember some years ago being told I was just crazy and lazy etc etc for asking for other ways to deal wth dc2 that wouldn’t be punishing him. I thought I was just me dealing with my children that way

I’d carry on talking to them and ask why they were hitting. I’d also use my understanding and relationship with them to think about why it might be happening - eg are they overtired, did a child take a toy from them and they’re angry, are they unsettled because of a big event like arrival of a sibling or starting nursery.

See, now I think that is an appalling message to give children. It's basically rationalising and excusing violence, even encouraging it. Because if they get the message if they are cross or hungry or grumpy Mummy will pay attention if they hit someone. It'll reinforce the behaviour. And it really doesn't matter why a child hits another. It's unacceptable. But by allowing a child to explain why they hit you're basically saying that it's okay in some circumstances not to control their impulses.

And of course it will be being tired or grumpy or having a toy stolen now. But in 20 years time it will be their dinner not on the table or their GF talking to another man. Because they will have been taught violence is a way to express themselves, get attention and ultimately getting what they want.

Am really just echoing previous posters, but yes they don't sound like your sort of people. If you are constantly stressed about their children's behaviour, and fed up with their moaning then what are you getting out of this friendship? No point being their shoulder to moan on if you aren't enjoying their company. So not BU to perhaps cool off on the meet ups. Perhaps join MUSH or go to some new groups to find some new people to spend time with.

With regards to gentle parenting, they can call their parenting style whatever they want but they certainly do not seem to be following the ideas behind GP. It certainly does not advocate never saying no (not in the extensive research I have done) or not setting boundaries. I have found many of the 'gentle' methods have really worked for me and my DS, but hold no judgement over parents who choose other routes. I might not agree with the naughty step or feel its right with my son, but I have plenty of friends who use this approach. Totally their decision for their children. And I get incredibly wound up by people who call gentle parenting lazy. Keeping my cool and being patient is much harder IMO than just shouting and dragging my son to the corner. People who throw comments around saying that gentle parenting is lazy, sets no boundaries, that there is not discipline etc etc clearly have not looked into it properly and have just read overly generalised articles in poorly researched newspapers. You know which paper I mean.... Please don't judge gentle parents by the few people who do seem to use the title but a completely different approach.
I can understand the frustration in listening to someone constantly moan about the same subject and never taking advice on board. Clearly she needs to vent, but if you don't want to put up with it anymore then don't.
Good luck!

And I have just realised I sound a bit judgey here "Keeping my cool and being patient is much harder IMO than just shouting and dragging my son to the corner."
Parenting is not easy however you do it. I just meant its not easy or lazy to constantly have to try and be patient and follow the GP ideas. I certainly do not let my son do whatever he pleases and run riot round other people's houses. No destruction of property, no biting or hitting, no running in roads. All "hard no's" as I read about in Sarah Ockwell-Smith's books.

Proper gentle parenting is anything but lazy.

bummy I agree.

Gentle parenting is hard, often lonely but worth it for me.

Talking to kids about why they were hitting wouldn't work at all if you weren't regularly giving them positive attention when they're doing what you want. If you did that, of course they would misbehave, because children generally prefer negative attention to no attention at all. The positive attention at other times is very important. If you try to gentle parent but only react when they're doing something bad, rather than rewarding them when they're doing something good, that's not going to work.

Hmm I’m going to disagree with you Elton

I’ve had one child who had ‘a temper’, very bad outbursts close to a autistic meltdown (it was bad enough this was investigated as such).
I never punished him.
I cuddled him, I talked to him, I reassured him. It was very clear he was completely unable to control that outburst.
I thought him to move away from situations that were too hard to handle for him, before he wouod lash out.
But more importantly we concentrated on finding the reasons for his outbursts, (in his case issues with language and communication, esp at school).
And it worked. He has become a very caring teenager who hasn’t learnt violence is ok. It s always been cleared it wasn’t. He has learnt that an explanation is NOT an excuse (that applies to a lot of other areas, not just hitting). He has learnt that violence isn’t ok nor are outbursts of anger. But punishing him for something he couldnt control at that time wouldnt have helped at all.
On the other side, some stories you can read in here of some teens behaviour are despite all the punishments etc...
Besides, if you know your child is likely to get angry/hit if they are hungry (and Dc1 used to get very sensitive to hunger) then you just plan ahead p, take some snacks with you and prevent the situation anyway. That’s very easy to do tbh.

Understanding why a behavior happens isn't the same thing as saying that behavior is OK. I understand why the people who flew planes into the towers in New York or the people who bombed the Underground in London did what they did. That isn't at all the same thing as saying I think they were right to do what they did- of course I don't. It's often easier to stop or prevent an undesired behavior if you know why it is happening.

What positive parenting techniques do you use when a child refuses to leave the house then? Whatever techniques the lady I knew was using weren't working as the child was late for everything including an hour late to her own birthday party as she wasn't ready to leave.
Fine if you are happy to fanny about for an hour leaving people waiting but you are teaching your kid that they are the only one who matters and setting them up to be extremely rude imo.
I'm a gentle parent and sometimes my kids HAVE to do stuff. There are times when they have a choice and there are times when they don't. Messing other people around, hitting others, disrespecting their property, missing school, missing doctors appointments, refusing to carry out basic hygiene etc aren't things that are up for discussion.

BlueMirror

Getting kids out of the house may involve singing, marching, big tickling spiders, an expectation that life is for living.

My kids have never been late for school.

Not once.

Yeah they tend to not be as enthusiastic about that aged 10!
Good for you if that works for you but it doesn't work for everyone.

Agree with your comments about positive attention geeky.
I often comment on what my DS is doing to him, and praise him for good listening etc. The stance on the no praise part in some gentle parenting ideas doesn't really work for me. I have met several children who have lashed out and IMO it was because they weren't getting enough positive attention. And positive attention doesn't just have to be praise, but just full attention and spending quality time (Which I appreciate some parents struggle to do much of with the busy lives they lead)

But by the time kids are older the ethos of being on time has stuck.

We are a family that value punctuality- it shows respect to others.

Sorry that should read I often comment to my DS on what he is doing (you seem to really be enjoying that book), and praise him for good listening etc