To find my gentle parenting friends infuriating?

[Littlemissmuff]

NC as this may be outing.

I have 3 friends, all have toddlers between 2 and 3 years old.
Our children play together frequently and their parenting style is driving me mad.
One of them literally never says no to her son, he can hit our childre or destroy something but instead she insists on talking nicely to him even though he is definitely not listening.
Another one has a huge moan several times a day about how tired she is and she fed up of her toddler getting her up all night to breastfeed; however won't do anything about it and won't take any suggestions such as water or night weaning and states that it is cruel and our roles as mothers are to cuddle our children all night if we have to if that's what they demand even at age 3.
I don't care how they parent their child but I do when it's affecting my son, he is forever getting pushed about by these kids now and he is constantly seeing them doing really dangerous behaviour and "risk taking" without any parent intervention which then makes me look awful to him if i tell him no if he tries to copy them climbing on to the TV stand or windowsill.
I don't know what research shows, but my god these children are so much more naughty than any other children I know.
Aibu to end our playdates even though it might end our friendship?

[Fruitboxjury]

I’d suggest gradually moving away from these friends and making new ones before you fall out. Like pp said, just do meet ups away from home and less often, meet without the children. Ultimately though they aren’t your people and they already see you as an outsider because you don’t do things their way, they’ve made that clear.

We had a friend who was like this, the mother wouldn’t hear a word against her son who was an absolute horror. He was violent, aggressive, mean and disrespectful but she tried to justify it with him being “highly intelligent”.

He overstepped the line with my DS one day and she tried to impose her parenting on my child (ie force my ds to give her ds his own way to stop him being violent as it was the only way she knew to calm him down). We’ve never seen them since and never will again. It’s no loss from our life but I would rather it hadn’t happened the way it did.

[murmuration]

cat, I think we're on the same page - saying "that makes Mummy sad" would only be approrpiate if the child hit Mummy! What I was trying to say (perhaps clumsily) is that the child wants to please the parent, and the parent empahises empathy to others - exactly as you give in your example. The child listens to you, becasue they want to please you, and by listening learns empathy for others, which they then carry out. And this should then work in the absence of the parent. But doing it poorly, by emphasising too much how the child's behaviour makes you, the parent, feel, you can mistie the empathy to you instead of others. It does still seem to work in the absence of the parent, but perhaps not so well (nor so functionally)? So it's sort of a similar technique, which we see in narcissism to be very powerful.

Will go look up emotion coaching. That does sound interesting.

[AVoiceInTheCrowd]

I’ve just seen that you – murmuration – mentioned reading the book ‘how to talk so kids will listen (etc)’. I loved that book – it had loads of practical tips that just made sense.

I was glad the authors never called themselves ‘gentle parents’ (as you pointed out) – that term still sets my teeth on edge somehow. And I found it unexpectedly powerful in getting me to acknowledge my own emotions.

If my toddler hit me, it wouldn’t just make me sad – it would make me angry. And acknowledging that anger allowed me to feel ok about the use of timeouts, despite them not being advocated by the book. I find them to sometimes be the most effective ways of letting the initial, adrenaline-fuelled, angry reaction drain away (in just a minute or two) before then reconnecting positively and exploring the hitting episode in some way (which would almost always make me see I needed to change the environment somehow). Thankfully such moments diminished greatly after trying out some of their tips (as well as some tips in another book which I think complemented the first quite well - ‘Simplicity Parenting’).

I’m not really sure what point I’m trying to make – sorry! I guess I’m just excited to see someone else has read that book and I'm wanting to discuss the effect of exploring emotions, anger in particular (it seems to me one of the more complex emotions, in that there's often a lot of internal and external factors mixed up in it). Probably just needs a thread of its own though!

[murmuration]

avoice - I love that book! It's my all-time favourite parenting book. And I'm someone who just reads everything, and I haven't found one I like better. It seems to get the tone just right and I'm really into bullet point lists (whereas, conversely, the 'positive discipline' series made me want to throw the book across the room each time they came out with the 'when we know better, we do better' phrase - somehow it just felt so condescending).

[Absofrigginlootly]

mumuration sorry I'm a bit confused by your post.... why don't you think a parent can tell a child how they have made them feel? I think it's important that children hear how their actions and words can hurt other people's feelings, including their parents.

As long as it's not laid on constantly and really thickly in a self obsessed way to induce constant guilt and make the child feel bad about themselves then I think it's important that children are taught that their actions/words can hurt mummy or daddy's feelings. It stops parents being seen as 2D non-people

[Absofrigginlootly]

I've not read the "how to talk" book but I LOVE Simplicity Parenting!!!!

[Absofrigginlootly]

Or do you mean if the action was not directed towards the parent in the first case?

If DD pushed another child I would address with her how it made the other child feel.

If she pushed me I would address with her how that made me feel.

I think that's the right approach..... do you mean that if DD pushed another child I shouldn't say "that made mummy sad when you pushed that child" ?? In which case I agree with you

[murmuration]

abso - yeah, that's it - direct the empathy towards the person affected, and if it's the parent that's fine, but it doesn't make sense to me to filter everything through the parent (although perhaps I'm oversensitive to this, as my parents clearly still base their emotions upon my actions, which I think is ridiculous for 70-something adults, and basically means I don't share my life with them because it sends them on emotional roller coasters...I can't be responsible for their emotional well-being, they can bloody well manage it themselves! Okay, definitely oversensitive...).

Oo, new book! Haven't read that one. Will need to look into it.

[Absofrigginlootly]

Ah ok. Makes sense. I agree then

Yes I hear you on the parent blame/guilt. My DM is quite narcissistic (not as far as NPD, but enough to affect my mental health growing up).

Made me feel responsible for her feelings all the time and basically gave me the message throughout my childhood that she took my growing up and becoming an adult with my own thoughts and opinions as a personal insult. That I was somehow being disloyal towards her and all the sacrifices she made.

I digress.... what I mean is that I definitely agree with you about not laying it on so thick that you make your children feel responsible for a parents emotional wellbeing. But I think it's important that they are brought up to realize that their actions/words have consequences on other people's feelings (including their parents). It's a fine line I guess....

[AVoiceInTheCrowd]

It's good to hear that others have liked books I like! Makes me feel I'm not so odd perhaps...
One of the best things I like about 'How to talk' was hearing that the authors, as empathic as they sounded, still got angry with their children - they were so forgiving to parents and emphasised that it's more what you say rather than how you say it that generally matters (plus that you can just apologise after you've done/ said something totally wrong to your child - thank God for that!). Which makes it ok to yell 'I don't like making people wait!!!' rather than try to calmly state 'please hurry up, dear...' (and then confuse the child with your likely massively passive-aggressive undertone).
I loved 'Simplicity Parenting' too - haven't bothered reading anything else apart from those two parenting books as they really were so helpful in combination (reverted to novels again now). It made me look into the Steiner method, as I think the author has a bit of a background in that, though I backed away from that on discovering a bit more about it!
Essentially, I think both books are just good for life, and how to treat/ talk to others in general - the parenting tag is almost incidental.

Totally get where you are both coming from with feeling slightly oppressed by perceived parental over-investment in one's life and feelings, and agree completely that it is such a fine line to tread between giving your growing (and grown) children background support and becoming overbearing. Completely expecting to fail at that, in my children's adult eyes, myself! Those books made me think back to my own childhood and realise that most of my happy memories felt rather remote from whatever my parents were doing - exploring and discovering the world on my own terms. That made me feel better about having a rather laid back approach (I think) to parenting - perhaps if I can provide a stable base, and some basic rhythm to their days in terms of meals etc, they can encounter all that life has to offer without a continuing burden of feeling they need to please me (that is a universal initial urge, I agree, murmuration).

Woah, what a long post. That person earlier about the long-winded parents on this thread was certainly right about me!!
There should be a forum for discussing books! I'd definitely sign up to that!

[CatsAndCairngorms]

Thanks for clarifying murmur, we are on the same page

Another huge fan of How to Talk here - and I agree that it's not just a parenting book, it's really helped me in marriage and work life as well! I definitely err towards being hot headed.

AVoice - I just wanted to say that I loved your last post and feel I could've written much of it myself.

[Absofrigginlootly]

Yes the author of Simplicity Parenting is from a Waldorf background.... I was initially attracted to Steiner education too until I read about anthroposophy (bonkers!!!)

I didn't agree with 100% everything in the book but overall it really resonated with me and helped me to clarify with myself the approach we are trying to take with DD.

I agree about not becoming over invested.... if I feel myself being drawn that way I just give myself a mental slap and reminder about my own childhood with an overly controlling DM - although the difference there was that she imposed her own opinions and thoughts onto my feelings, denied my feelings and was basically emotionally abusive in that respect.

She generally failed to acknowledge that I in fact had feelings and were entitled to feelings that were different from hers.... I think if you avoid doing that AVoice then your fine

I think I'm going to order that "how to talk" book, it sounds great

[mathanxiety]

Bonkers is the word, Absofrigginlootly...

[Spartaca]

I love all these books, and Non Violent Communication. I feel the need to re-read them now the kids are getting older.

[murmuration]

Oh, I just got Non-Violent Communication! Saw it recommended in a completely different context.

I also found I was applying techniques from How To Talk with DH :)

I'd love a forum to discuss books. I talk DH's ear off about each one I read. He said I should start a blog with reviews, but I don't feel like I have 'reviews' to give, more like little things it made me think about. And even books I disagree with a lot I can often find a small piece of useful info, or insights into how people think, or something.

I've heard the words Waldorf and Steiner, but don't know what they mean.

[AVoiceInTheCrowd]

You should definitely start a blog, murmuration - and link the post to this thread so I can follow it! I sometimes wonder about starting one, but the thought of the effort involved in learning how to actually do one, as well as the fear of looking silly when it all inevitably falls apart is a bit of a stumbling block. (Also, there are too many things I'd want to write about, so it'd be a bit of a weird hotch-potch at best) (Then again, why am I inventing my own hurdles?).

I don't really know what's really involved in Waldorf and Steiner philosophies - I'm pretty sure they are different things though, and it is Waldorf rather than Steiner that the Simplicity Parenting author had a bit of a background in - my mistake!

And that's very kind, CatsAndCairngorms. It's weirdly scary to write on a mumsnet forum even though it's anonymous (I've only just joined), so it helps to have some encouragement!

[mikado1]

Never heard of simplicity parenting but am going to look it up. Love how to talk and also Siblings without rivalry by the same authors! I don't write reviews but did set up a parenting book club whereby one person reads the parenting book and reports back general synopsis, talking points etc. Total nerd I know but actually we have great chats and reassure one another about our dc, our own meltdowns and our efforts.

None of us would allow our children to hit

Discipline without damage is a fabulous read but nothing as practical as How to talk..

Could do with a re-read actually as I have a v angry/anxious ds at the moment who can be rude to others and it's hard to know how to handle in the moment.

[mathanxiety]

Steiner and Waldorf are the same item. Rudolph Steiner set up his first anthroposophic school in a former Waldorf cigarette factory in either Germany or Austria (can't recall exact location).

[everythingisempty]

Re the Steiner philosophy -it has some racist roots if you read up on it :(

[wisterialanes]

I found the Simplicity Parenting a tad....simplistic? Elements of it reminded me of advice for children with severe ASD, such as only having 3 toys/books at a time and never deviating EVER from the set bedtime. It all sounds like too much work to me.

[mathanxiety]

Twas Stuttgart, and the factory was the 'Waldorf-Astoria' cigarette factory.

[AVoiceInTheCrowd]

Parenting book club with synopses etc sounds like a great idea!
And thank you for the info about Steiner/ Waldorf, definitely memorable to think about a school set up in an ex-cigarette factory! Some of his beliefs - bonkers indeed!! I could never sign up my children to a school like that, despite being attracted to elements of it - feels like the staff must be silently hoping they don't get asked by parents to elaborate on some of the background philosophy, which surely should be jettisoned in favour of something a little more evidence-based!

It's been nearly a year since I read 'Simplicity Parenting', and I probably could have paid more attention to it - I clearly totally ignored/ didn't see the bit about having to have a rigid bedtime (or the '3 books or toys only' - I thought it was much more vague than that; something more like 'life will probably feel a lot simpler, with no negative repercussions, if you have far fewer toys/ books than you are likely to own') (we now have a sort of toy/ book 'library' in a cupboard to rotate things around). My own feeling was that the author was fairly welcoming of the fact that readers might pick and choose from the suggestions in it, but that could have just been me reading into it. (I took the same attitude to 'How to talk' which is why I still use timeouts, and why I also use the word 'no' much more often than it seems the authors seem to think will be effective).

I'm assuming I'll be dipping into/ re-reading parenting books for some time, even though I currently don't feel that need, so it's good to see some other suggestions - thanks!