To find my gentle parenting friends infuriating?

[Littlemissmuff]

NC as this may be outing.

I have 3 friends, all have toddlers between 2 and 3 years old.
Our children play together frequently and their parenting style is driving me mad.
One of them literally never says no to her son, he can hit our childre or destroy something but instead she insists on talking nicely to him even though he is definitely not listening.
Another one has a huge moan several times a day about how tired she is and she fed up of her toddler getting her up all night to breastfeed; however won't do anything about it and won't take any suggestions such as water or night weaning and states that it is cruel and our roles as mothers are to cuddle our children all night if we have to if that's what they demand even at age 3.
I don't care how they parent their child but I do when it's affecting my son, he is forever getting pushed about by these kids now and he is constantly seeing them doing really dangerous behaviour and "risk taking" without any parent intervention which then makes me look awful to him if i tell him no if he tries to copy them climbing on to the TV stand or windowsill.
I don't know what research shows, but my god these children are so much more naughty than any other children I know.
Aibu to end our playdates even though it might end our friendship?

If they're refusing to leave the house on a regular school day, they'd hear from me that you can't stay home from school just because you want to. I might also remind them that everybody has to do things they don't want to do sometimes. If they persisted (which generally doesn't happen- they know that school is a non-negotiable part of the routine), I'd tell the younger one that he has to go to school and carry him. I have heard of people sending kids to school in their pajamas because the kids didn't get ready in time. I would be inclined to say that TV after school is for people who are cooperative about going to school.

If they're refusing to leave for something that isn't part of the daily routine (and it presumably isn't something fun), then I would explain why we need to do whatever it is. If it's a fun trip for somebody else but less so for them (though I try not to do this with them- if I'm doing something fun for me, I'd generally rather go without them), I might explain that that person does things that the kids like, and they need to take turns and sometimes do something the other person likes. I might throw in an incentive of some sort- a trip to the pet store to look at the pets for adoption (not to adopt one, but we like to look), a treat, something along those lines. Or maybe a TV show later.

Obeying authority is sometimes necessary, but good authority figures don't generally tell adults to do things for no good reason. My managers have generally explained why something needed to be done if I asked. We're members of a race and socioeconomic status that doesn't have much contact with the police and are likely to be treated decently if we do (my approach might be different if this were not the case). If either of them wants to join the military, they'll be old enough by then to know that that career path does involve following orders without question, and be able to decide if that's for them.

The vast majority of kids will do what they are asked the vast majority of the time because they want to please and do the right thing but anyone who says their children always do is lying. And if you won't enforce good behaviour then you are going to be inconveniencing others and possibly risking their health if they decide they don't want to brush their teeth for eg. If your child brushes their teeth enough just because you've asked them then great but if they didn't it would not be good parenting not to insist and do whatever you could to make sure they didn't get rotten teeth.

And I'm sorry but banning tv after school is not a natural consequence - it's a punishment.

It doesn't, it just makes them an argumentative little shit who couldn't tell the difference between genuine injustice and boiled cabbage.
Exactly.
I would say i have a positive teaching style. I tell the students what i expect and give out lots of praise. I would rather do a redirect than draw attention to negative behaviour. However, that doesn't mean I'm going to stop my lesson to say timmy darling. It is very important you listen to this piece of information and take notrs because it is vital for your gcses. Also when you tap your pen it is highly distracting for all the other students who want to learn
Not a chance. 'Timmy stop tapping your prn and pay attention' suffices. Timmy isn't an idiot so doesn't need to be given 5 minutes of attention which indulges him with a lengthy explanation. Timmy needs to do what he is told to and stop thinking timmy's need to do what he likes is more important than the learning of 29 other children.
Timmy's parent thinks disciplining Timmy is stifling his creativity. Teachers think Timmy's parent is a PITA who is always on the phone thinking they are tackling some sort of institutionalised oppression by kicking off and defending everu little thing Timmy tries to be argumentative over.

The idea is that they learn that there generally are good reasons for you telling them to do what you tell them to do. You don't tell them to do a lot of arbitrary things just because you want them to. It's about building trust. They generally do what you tell them because they trust you to have good reasons for telling them to do things, not because they're afraid of what will happen if they don't.

They will ask why sometimes, and you can give them an explanation. If they keep asking why, I might ask, "why do you think?" (that usually stops the barrage of whys)

It’s a shame you had that experience, my perception was initially that gentle parenting would produce feral, bullying children but realised opposite when I saw a friend who gentle parented her son. He is in turn at 3 a lovely gentle caring child. She almost never says no to him but she does say ‘please don’t hit xxx’, if necessary followed by ‘I won’t let you hit xxx while holding his hands gently’ and finally removing him from the situation and talking to him until he calms down. I’ve seen it be so successful I’m trying the same approach with my DS. It doesn’t mean no boundaries it means enforcing them kindly and with respect. I do use No but I try to save it for situations where he’s at risk of seriously hurting himself or someone else or breaking something that matters (or belongs to someone else), he knows what it means and because it’s rarely used he tends to stop in surprise if nothing else!
Unfortunately I think what you’ve seen is a lazy misinterpretation of ‘gentle parenting’ - done well it’s blooming hard work, I’m not great at it, it’s much easier to say no than rephrase it, explain, redirect and model the behaviour that I want, I do my best but I’m not perfect. It’s possible to be a shouty ‘no’ type parent and also totally ineffectual. Parenting is hard and most people are doing their best to produce kind and caring but capable and confident kids the way they think is best. If your friends children are hurting your son or damaging your things either talk to them about how they want you to stop it, if they don’t like ‘no’ what phrase and actions should you use. If they just want to let it carry on that’s just not acceptable regardless of parenting ‘style’ explain to them that you can’t let your child be hurt and that you would prefer to meet without the children in future.

The idea is that they learn that there generally are good reasons for you telling them to do what you tell them to do. You don't tell them to do a lot of arbitrary things just because you want them to. It's about building trust. They generally do what you tell them because they trust you to have good reasons for telling them to do things, not because they're afraid of what will happen if they don't.

Yes I agree.

Two of the people I know who did this now have dcs who are excluded from primary school. It's a desperate situation.

It is not preparing them for life in the real world. If you don't teach your dcs boundaries and to respect authority, you're setting them up to fail and are actually neglecting key parenting responsibilities imo.

If my dcs weren't polite, respectful and considerate of others, I'd feel I'd failed. It took a fair amount of telling them no to get them there though. Still does sometimes.

My children are not " little shits" .

I have practiced AP, gentle parenting, no punishment, positive parenting.
My kids have never been punished.
And they have never been punished in school either.
My 17 year old DD is currently head girl in her last year at a large secondary school. A position chosen not for academic achievement but for her attitude and her ability to serve as a role model for other students.
Two years ago her older brother was head boy at the same school.

Gentle parenting was tough and hard work in he early years- but I think that as a result the teenage years have been a breeze.

If child hits yours then tell yours to copy said child...

Poor parenting and gentle parenting are different.

If these people aren't guiding their kids, it's because they are lax parents. It has nothing to do with being child led. So please don't lump all gentle parents under the same header.

I get you are upset with them hurting your child and yanbu about that.

As for the whole sleeping/breastfeeding thing. None of your business.

Speak out I simply don't believe you. I've worked in many schools and even the best behaved children and head boys/girls etc have been punished. If you prefer to think that your child has never been so much as told off for talking when the teacher is then that's up to you but I can guarantee they will have been.
There is no parenting method that leads to a child never making behavioural mistakes.

I'm with Speakout tbh. My children are younger, but apart from being little beasts at home at times they are an absolute dream. They're known for being polite, well behaved and kind and we are very proud of them. Never been punished, put in time out, and rarely shouted at. Sleep in our bed whenever they feel like it, get a huge amount of say in the day to day life of the house, don't go to school but know how to listen when needed. I know some absolute little brats, but certainly not all 'gentle parented'.

Bingbongband
I think the thing is for every parent who does gentle parenting properly, there's those who think it means be your chilr's mate and have no boundaries.
Parent 1 gentle parebts. They have firm boundaries and raises polite abd respectful children. They have chosen their approach and get on with it. They also tend to accept that schools/nurseries will not follow their parenting style to the letter, are generally supportive of school/nursery abd because of their wonderful upbringing those children are able to challenge authority and ask questions appropriately and respectfully.

Parent 2 also does gentle parenting but in a pick n mix who believes any use of the word 'no' or boundaries will ruin their child, is utterly permissive. They are big on letting their child 'be a kid and express themselves', which to most folk translates to do what they like and be a little brat. These parents love going on about how rulea are damaging, schools are picking on their child, love sharing facebook shares from other 'gentle parenting of thr permissive variety' where lots of huns congratulate each other on getting crayon off the walls for thr 4th time by Monday tea time. These parents consider themselves anti establishment and think it's cute that their little monkey has an opinion. They also think following rules is 'blindly following authority' and so their DC is brought up to challenge any rule or expectation they don't like. In school these are the disruptuve argumentative types who in the eyes of their parents are little darlings.

Parent 1 is awesome and is getting on with it. Parent 2 is the type of person who ruins the face of gentle parenting because they claim it in a virtue signally type way to justify their crap parenting.

Telling off isn't the same as punishment surely?

I’ve seen spoilt children grow up into spoilt, lazy and entitled adults.

I’m not saying that there aren’t other factors at play but what really stands out for me is the devil may care approach to parenting, empty threats instead of consistent and reasonable boundaries.

BlueMirror I don't think being asked to be quiet in class is a punishment.

I tell off whenever needed, explaining why I'm doing it, but have rarely ever punished.

There is nothing more irritating than hearing someone repeatedly saying "stop that or I'll.." but never following through when they don't stop.

Penggwyn because I said so... I just find it a bit lazy (not calling you lazy - I'm just talking about that phrase) If I don't have a good reason to ask someone to do something (including but not limited to my DCs!) then why am I asking them to do it? And it doesn't teach the DCs anything.

I also think there's a slightly sinister undertone to the idea that we should accept any order from someone in charge - but I think we probably fundamentally agree on this given what you say about speaking up at school about things that felt morally wrong. (Hope I haven't got you confused with a different poster there, I've been away from this for a few hours.)

whirlygirly drives me insane when I hear that! I hate the whole "if you do that one more time I'll...." and then 3 times later they are still saying it!

What is your schools discipline policy out of interest speak out? I've never been in a school where the policy is to ask the kids to do something and if they can do it or not. My kids are very well behaved but have been 'punished' for things like asking to go to the toilet in lesson time or forgetting homework. Clearly due to my refusal to use your magic parenting method that leads to 100% compliant children!
It's all very well not being lazy and having a respectful conversation about exactly why a child needs to do something. But if teachers do that for 30 kids every time they ask why there would be no lessons taught.

Penggwyn sounds like we are probably more alike than different then. I haven't yet had the experience of a child questioning one of my instructions in the manner you describe. I'm not deluded or pretending, no doubt it will happen one day.