Should men pay for dates or at least offer to pay?

[lottieandmia22]

This is a subject I have a lot of mixed feelings about really. On one hand I can see that it's not fair to expect the man to pay. If he was going on many dates initially he'd be severely out of pocket.

BUT my experience of men who don't at least offer to pay is that later on they seem generally tight. OTOH I was very put off by a man who made huge grand gestures.

What have your experiences been?

I'm sure there are some women who just want a free meal or whatever, just as there are some men who just want a shag.

On the other hand, it always amazes me how many women on MN get married and have children, yet maintain separate finances. They Often have to return to work earlier than they might have wished - then they pay for the childcare themselves!! Often they see this as "independence". There was a woman the other day (married) who was really proud of the fact she had financially supported herself through a year's maternity leave (maybe it was on this thread)? Why?? You might scoff at the traditional role of men as "financial provider" at such a time. You may think paying for yourself is independence and think you're in a more equal relationship, but really you are effectively letting your DH off the hook completely. Not only is his work completely unaffected by having children, he doesn't have to make any provision for his wife either. What is the point of him at all? I genuinely didn't realise people are happy to live in this way until I came on MN. It's not equality, it's just having too low expectations of men and making a rod for your own back because "having it all" do often means "doing it all."

What you’re talking about there is a man supporting his children and family.

Not a man paying for a woman’s dinner - before they’ve had children together - because it’s ‘masculine’ or ‘just a nice thing to do’ or ‘good manners’.

I also think a lot of men who are financially or otherwise abusive will start of by being very loving and very generous. So no I don’t think you can tell by if he pays or offers to pay on a first date whether he’s going to support you if you have children. There are other ways you can tell.

Yes but if you date a man who, even on the first few dates (when you might expect them to be trying to make a favourable impression or effort), never offers to pay or takes any initiative whatsoever, can you be surprised if ten years down the line, he still feels no compunction to support you during maternity leave or have a proper attitude towards supporting his family? Is this kind of man more likely or less likely to step up when it counts?

I would always expect anyone I was having drinks or dinner with to offer their half. As I said to a previous poster - anything less is CF territory! That’s nothing to do with gender though.

The normal way it happens is you offer to go halves and one of you would say oh I’ll get it you get the next one.

Altho it seems many women on this thread would just .. what.. sit quietly with a tightly closed purse, when the bill arrives?

Yes but if you date a man who, even on the first few dates (when you might expect them to be trying to make a favourable impression or effort), never offers to pay or takes any initiative whatsoever, can you be surprised if ten years down the line, he still feels no compunction to support you during maternity leave or have a proper attitude towards supporting his family? Is this kind of man more likely or less likely to step up when it counts?

This goes both ways. If the woman does not offer to go halves on the first date, the man shouldn't be surprised to have her acting the same way ten years down the line...

Bill paying time is my favourite part of 'First Dates', so cringey. There's an unbelievable amount of CF women out there who either don't offer at all, or make really half arse attempts at offering.

(I've not RTFT so this might have been said before.)

You should def go halves. That said, if you’re with a partner who’s never offered to pay, often you’ll find that they are a bit tight generally.

Expressing the importance of financial independence right from the off is the safest and most sensible thing

If you were to end up having children with your date, the precedent has not been set that it is expected that the woman automatically sacrifices their career and money without some serious discussion, and she defaults to the power of the man's wage

There are hundreds of women on here every month stuck in awful relationships where they have no financial freedom to leave and it will have started with the assumption that men will pay for you and look after you. Only to be sorely disappointed.

The old saying "there is no such thing as a free lunch" is apt

You can't pick and chose your equality

Yes yes yes. It’s about having higher standards not Lower.

Yes but if you date a man who, even on the first few dates (when you might expect them to be trying to make a favourable impression or effort), never offers to pay or takes any initiative whatsoever, can you be surprised if ten years down the line, he still feels no compunction to support you during maternity leave or have a proper attitude towards supporting his family? Is this kind of man more likely or less likely to step up when it counts?

You, like Lottie, are massively projecting.

Anyway, I don’t think anyone has suggested that a man should ‘never offer to pay’, just that a women should meet him half way, or buy a round or whatever.

The mental acrobats continue!

Personally I found it massive turn off if I got the impression on a date that I was being judged on my financial largess along side my other attributes. In such situations things very rarely moved onto a second date, not because I am ‘tight’ but because I find that sense of entitlement and princessy behaviour not terribly attractive.

Nobody has said that women should expect not to have to pay. I don't think that's the point. I would not go on a date if I couldn't pay. It's more that it can put you off a man if he doesn't try to pay.

Nobody has said that women should expect not to have to pay.

You have heavily implied throughout the entire thread.

No, that's not the point. If you read the thread properly you would see this.

Women shouldn't expect to be paid for but if the man pays it shows he's less selfish as he's just offered to pay for a relative stranger. I like kind people. And I always reciprocate kindness.

Women who just go on dates to get a free dinner are a different kettle of fish.

On all the dates I've been on where the man insisted on paying I would at some point order a bottle of something to share without asking him so he can't insist on paying.

Women shouldn't expect to be paid for but if the man pays it shows he's less selfish as he's just offered to pay for a relative stranger. I like kind people. And I always reciprocate kindness.

Would you offer to pay (in full) on a first date? Or are you not as kind?

Read my previous post

Also you can tell a lot from things like how much thought they put into the date. Where they suggest you go and what you do etc.

Women who just go on dates to get a free dinner are a different kettle of fish.

But what differentiates you from the the above kind of women? To the bloke who you are on a date with you are no different to the women he dated the previous month who scurried off to the bathroom come bill time or or sat their nursing an empty glass despite him buying the previous three rounds.

*there

Pan - as I said, there may be some women who are just in it for a free meal or whatever, but these are really few and far between. You keep reducing dating to a financial transaction, but if that was the case, most women wouldn't bother. How many women need a free dinner really - think about it, it's not worth the awkwardness.

Attraction is instinctive and that runs deeper than political correctness. Some women will be attracted to potential partners who exhibit certain behaviours. It happens on an unconscious level. Its not being a "princess" as you put it.

Also you can tell a lot from things like how much thought they put into the date. Where they suggest you go and what you do etc

So the docile women sits at home, waiting to be told what to do, where to go, expecting the Man to pay for everything whilst she sits there worrying about a potential loss of income down the line if she were to become a SAHM.
Did it never occur to you that a woman could dare to organise a date, even, lord help us, suggest where it would be and what they would do?

So woman are fragile creatures who need to be told where to go and be paid for? Wow.

So if the man is showing that they are kind and thoughtful for arranging and paying what image is the woman projecting who just agrees and doesn't open her purse? That's she not kind or throughtful?

I'd tell me son to run a mile if his date needed him to pick the venue and then pay for it to. It shows that the financial future for him would be very unequal and he'd end up as a cashpoint.

I really don't see how some people can't see that this isn't about money and women going home thinking 'ooh good I haven't paid a penny'

lottie she's not a carbon copy of me and has her own views.

I wasn't saying she was a carbon copy of you. However let me give you an example of how ridiculous ideas filter down.

In my culture, a woman must know how to look after a house, this is the only way she will get and keep a man. Now this is the chauvinism I was raised with. I know better I railed against it growing up. But I have still vocalised surprise, that women leave their homes not being able to cook. It is a failure of their mother and themselves. I honestly cannot shake this, although I know it is stupid. And would never raise my children like this (hence why my son can look after a house as well as my DD will).

However, it is seeped into my core, that that is wrong. Like for your DD a man paying for dates (first dates, whatever) is right, but she will disagree with so many other things.

Also your other point about the only man etc etc. That was just one man, are you telling me that there are finite moulds of men and they all fit into these 'types'? Surely you can get that that isn't right?

Yes but if you date a man who, even on the first few dates

We've gone from a man expecting you to go halves to NEVER paying on dates? Wow, just wow!