to think this isn't 'just what kids do?'

[justsomestepmum]

My five year old DSD has developed a habit of telling lies. Lies told in the past week include:

• I get angry at her if she eats meat (I'm a vegetarian)
• Her dad told her that her mums cat had fleas and he is going to get rid of her cat
• That her teacher forced her to eat something she didn't want to

When she lies she is punished by removal of one of her dolls (her most cherished possessions) from her collection for 1 week, if she lies during that week another is taken and both held for another week. She also loses a star on her star chart which means she earns no pocket money for that day.

These punishments are always accompanied by age appropriate conversations of why it's wrong to lie, how it means we can't trust her, how it can get other people in trouble and cause serious issues. She never has an answer for why she lies. The cat/fleas one being particularly pointless, not sure what she's getting out of it.

Tonight I found out she has been telling her mum that her dad smacks/hits her. I know this is not 100% not true.

We don't know how to deal with it. It's been going on for about two months and nothing we do seems to have any input. DD's mum doesn't appear to think it's an issue and when I brought it up with her said it's 'just what kids do.'

The lies always seem to be about something DH or I are meant to have done or said and are told to mum. On two occasions they have been about teachers. As far as I recall there have been no lies she has told to us about things mum has done/said.

AIBU to think this isn't the norm? I'm at a loss as to how to get her to stop lying and more importantly work out why shes doing it.

I think this issue shows that your SD would prefer to be living with her Mummy. She is telling quite serious lies, most likely in an attempt to get Mummy to rescue her and she will then get to live with Mummy. That is likely why it never happens in your house.

How long has she been living with you and DH as resident parents OP? Did this start just after starting school? I am wondering if she is observing that all her friends live with Mummy and Daddy, or live mainly with their Mummy and have contact with their Daddy. This could be making her unsettled. Or she could be suffering from a break in the maternal bond, at five she should be with her Mummy, it's an unusual situation for a five-year-old girl (in her small social circle) not to live with their Mummy. I suspect that your SD will lie again, she wants her Mummy to think that her life with you and her Daddy is awful and she will likely keep lying until she gets the reaction she wants from Mummy. Unfortunately, that won't happen and you could have a very unhappy little girl.

I am not going to pry into the rights/ wrongs and why's of the situation, it is what it is. I would look for stories about all different kinds of families that are age appropriate.

www.amazon.co.uk/Family-Book-Todd-Parr/dp/0316070408/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=the+family+book&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1516149021&sr=8-1

www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Big-Book-Families/dp/1847805876/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_3?psc=1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=mumsnetforum-21&refRID=RQP39R5S95QWT8M8421N

www.amazon.co.uk/Whos-My-Family-About-Families/dp/1406345407/ref=pd_sim_14_5?psc=1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=mumsnetforum-21&refRID=GSCHZ0ZQ54BYCS430GNR

www.amazon.co.uk/My-Family-Love-Share-about/dp/140480160X/ref=pd_sim_14_2?psc=1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=mumsnetforum-21&refRID=ZGRCXS9RKQ4KDH70QHBK

I would also sit her down and let her know that it's ok to miss Mummy and that you won't be sad if she tells you she is missing Mummy. Does she have anything of her Mummy's that she can cuddle when she is missing her? Does she get to speak to her Mummy by video call/ phone every day? If not, I wonder if a phone call once a day to tell her what she has been doing at school would help?

Enough people have told you not to punish your sd, I am not going to be another one. You were obviously worried and trying to teach your sd that lying has consequences.The problem is, five-year-olds won't understand or remember what they have done wrong if you are approaching the issue after it has happened. Unless you can deal with the issue there and then, they likely won't link the punishment with the lie they told. I bet if asked she would say it was because she was naughty. I would read age-appropriate books about lying to her and the boy who cried wolf is perfect.

www.amazon.co.uk/Boy-who-Cried-Wolf-Learning-ebook/dp/B008610XQQ/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&keywords=the+boy+who+cried+wolf&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1516149522&sr=1-5

www.amazon.co.uk/A-Book-about-Lying/dp/0717285766/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&keywords=books+about+lying+for+young+children&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1516149924&sr=1-1

www.amazon.co.uk/Hippo-Owns-Up-telling-Behaviour/dp/1445147203/ref=pd_sim_14_1?psc=1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=mumsnetforum-21&refRID=XJCBM9QCF8G2PKHK254T

www.amazon.co.uk/Wasnt-Me-Learning-Honesty-Values/dp/0750221356/ref=pd_cp_14_3?psc=1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=mumsnetforum-21&refRID=8AZHGW5HW56NPE80YHJJ

www.amazon.co.uk/Boy-Cried-Wolf-First-Reading/dp/0746085591/ref=pd_sim_14_3?psc=1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=mumsnetforum-21&refRID=KSWM55QSBCWG24RDBZ4W

Good luck op, your sd sounds an unhappy little girl.

Can we give the OP a break about the living arrangements and rtft.

Can you address that to the one person who mentioned it was odd rather than insinuating loads of posters are giving the OP a hard time about it?

If star charts work for your family then it is usually recommended that they are used for something positive, so, a star for everyday your dsd has been kind to the daddy, step mum and mummy, (saying daddy hits her when he doesn't would be unkind), you don't take any stars away on the days when she does say something like that, she just doesn't earn any more.
But star charts and most behavioural parenting only works if the child has a really secure base and it sounds as though this little girls might be a bit shaky.
It might work better as others have said to really focus on making her feel loved, secure and safe with all of her carer's. Taking away her prize possessions, which may also be security items could just make her feel more unsafe and insecure, which in turn could increase the lying.
Although I don't think that punishment is the best way forward here a five day punishment isn't going to work on such a young child. If you must punish her keep in short and focused so she is able to hold it in mind.
It is worth bearing in mind that she is only five and hasn't chosen the upbringing that the adults around her are giving her, as she gets older she will start to see differences in her family set up to the norm, in the long run being supportive and understanding towards her is likely to get all of the carers further in helping her.

The duration of the punishment is way too long for her age. And whilst removing something is a perfectly legitimate punishment, I suspect removing her primary comfort object is seriously counterproductive.

Kids at that age lie. They're exploring truth, lies, imagination, stories, the nature of real vs unreal. But the lies that worry you most all seem to be "take me out of this situation" lies. They sound more like a confused cry for help than anything; Like a teenager cutting. She's 5. She isn't going to say "I'm all confused, and I miss my mum, and I want to live with my mum and my dad, together, and life isn't fair, and I have no control over anything, and just have to put up with the decisions grownups make". But there's a fair chance she's feeling some of it. Even if you are being an absolutely superb DSM.

If you were confused, and out of control, and anxious, and the only thing that made you feel a bit better was (say) cuddling your pet dog, and you spent lots of time pacing up and down and biting your fingernails, would you really do better if, every time you paced up and down or bit your fingernails, your dog was put in kennels for a week? Or if your teenager was self harming, would you get rid of their rabbit?

You need to address why she is doing it, and find ways to make her feel confident and happy enough that she doesn't need the scary lies. And the non scary lies? Who cares, for now: with lack of attention they'll wither in time.

I think mum is right in that it is just what 5 year olds do and that dd is playing off the two houses. How great I'd it that you have a good relationship with the mum it will be best for SDD in the long run. AND I agree you don't sound like an evil step mum, you sound like a great one you have built a relationship with the mum I presume for sdd sake. I had a very poor step mum but I don't tar every step mum with the same brush in fact my god daughters step mum is awesome. I have seen the poor and the awesome. You seem to be on the amazing side. It's a shame most women do judge step mum's harshly I just wanted to let you know not all of us do.

Also I can't find the comment but I see from other comments are getting bent out of shape about the living arrangements my stepmothers children lived with their father, ie not my dad and stepmother. 30 years ago. There's nothing partially odd about dad being awarded custody.

Families take all shapes and sizes - I think it’s wonderful that you care so much OP and I can’t imaginr how difficult it is to have a little girl with such a complex emotions, I’m sure it’s since she’s started school you know, she’ll hear/see that other kids live with their mummies and it’ll be the first instance of her realising that her home set up is a little bit different, just reassure her that every family is different but that she’s special and lucky that she has a larger family of people that adore her... it’s tough OP but it’s a good thing in the larger scheme of your DD establishing a sense of self and identity x

Why are you the primary carer OP and not her dad?

Do you have other children?

Maybe she is having problems with the massive reward/punishment systems you're inflicting on her at such a young age. She doesn't know how to express that she is frustrated with being expected to act in a way that is beyond her developmental level, so her frustration comes out as lying about other things she could theoretically be frustrated by, since she can't articulate the real issue.

This.

OP I would recommend you read this book... it's relevant even if you are not a 'shouty' parent. It's all about how to encourage good behaviorist through love and empathy, rather than punishment.

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0091955203/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ref=plSrch&keywords=peaceful+parent+happy+kids&dpPl=1&dpID=51ciSCEzLZL&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1516162316&sr=8-1

Also, I agree with Koala72 posts

Please stop the punishments. She probably blames herself for her parents splitting as all little kids do. This little girl is confused. She needs extra special dollops of love and understanding to help her grow out of the lying. Taking her toys away is going to have the opposite effect to the one you want. You may be the most loving stepmum in the world and I can see you love her a lot. However, as she sees it, she’s already had her mum taken away from her. That’s the ultimate punishment and enough for now. Taking stuff away from her will be reinforcing the belief she is to blame for the split.

I have at times removed things from dd for terrible behaviour. The difference is a) dd was older, b) dd didn’t have to deal with separation from a parent, c) what I did happened rarely and was effective. I would never ever take away a possession that she identifies with, such as her sleep toy. She didn’t get this toy til she was 6 and once told me her sleepy toy is magic.

Agree it’s normal and done for attention. At around this age my friend’s son told his teacher that his mum had thrown a knife at him!

If the lies are all told to her DM and she lives with you guys, then it sounds like she's wanting attention from DM. She wants to impress with tall tales, get her attention. It's a childlike way of wanting her to want her.

Think of kids in the school playground making up stories to try to impress older kids who they want to like them. The older kids think they're silly and the younger kids doesn't get it. Like, "MY dad has ONE HUNDRED cars!!!"^^

If I've understood correctly it sounds like she's doing this, with shock value for adult attention.

I'd also minimise it with "Your dad would never do that, he loves you." type of reply. And for the rest back off with punishments - but not boundaries - and make her feel very cherished. See if there's a difference in a month.

Some great book and other suggestions.

When she grows up you want her to recall a great childhood. My. Dad and stepmum. Love and understanding.
Not one where the prime memory is "I had my doll taken away by stepmum every week when I came back from visiting mum".

All behaviour is communication. In a 5 yr old is not defiance.give more love not cruelty .
Save punishments for later for something really serious.

I would definitely say that taking one of your DSD's dolls away for a week is unduly harsh. By the end of it, she won't remember why she's been punished and will only think that you're being mean to her. It will also be something she will remember and will resent.

I have 2 DDs (adopted), who are 8 and 5. DD1 does hit DD2, I have seen that. But DD2 is capable of lying to get her sister into trouble. Or sometimes she exaggerates, could there be things that she exaggerates?

The cat having flees - she may have got the wrong end of the stick? Her DM will be giving her cat stronghold/frontline to protect it against flees, so she might genuinely think the cat has flees? And did your DH say something in jest that she overheard?

Basically, when my DDs lie, it's normally something that they are exaggerating about to get extra attention.

If your DSD really wanted to tell people how horrible her dad and stepmum were, surely she would focus on how you're taking her dolls away and how unhappy she was. She's not doing that.

Thankfully, her DM is ignoring her lies and not using them against you. I think you should do the same, if she gets no attention as a result of her lies then she might be more likely to stop doing it.

If a teacher were to hear some of the things she says then "dad hit me" easily proved untrue.
"Srepmum takes my toys away" however.....

Cest I completely agree. There’s no real danger of her getting dad into trouble. My relative went through this exact scenario. Teacher spoke to parents about it, spoke to child about it, although embarrassing for the dad nothing more was said about it as it was clearly a lie. But you can hurt your child without physically hurting them and I think this little girls father should remember that. My dh was treated appalling by his mum. Horrid extreme punishments for mild misdemeanours and pychological bullying but nothing you could put your finger on as abuse as such. He remembers his childhood as a very sad and lonely place and has a dysfunctional relationship with his mum still.

Let's remember that the DH put the doll punishment in place, not OP. He needs to read the parenting books so that you can discuss them together and find a nurturing way of dealing with fibs. I would be upset if I were expected to carry out someone else's punishment.

Maybe this has been mentioned in a previous post, but if you are short of time for reading and / or videos, there are many podcasts available for when you're driving or whatever.

She may be experiencing a huge sense of loss as her awareness increases. But she's only five and doesn't know the words to tell you.

Is her class doing projects or assemblies on families? These topics can be difficult for a child to make sense of, and if you're aware of how it's presented to the class, and the discussions that follow, then that might shed some light on the situation.

You sound a very caring person. I wish you all the best.

Taking her dolls away for a week is way to long, she's five, a week feels like forever at that age.

I take toys from DS who's four and a half for five minutes to a few hours, depending on how naughty he's been - and when it's hours it's usually because he's been distracted by something else and we've forgotten about them.

Children do lie. I remember lying as a small child. Partly it's a new skill they've learnt so they're going to use it, secondly it winds up adults and gets a reaction, and sometimes they've probably just mixed up fantasy and reality.

It is just what kids do unfortunately, but that doesnt mean you should just ignore it. You are well within your rights to be cross! Acknowledge that she has lied and question her about it.
I wouldnt worry that its a very serious issue though because honestly millions of kids go through this phase and turn out okay. Try not to make it into such a big deal that she herself starts to think there is something wrong with her as that could make her behaviour worse.

Maybe all three parents need to sit together and speak to the school family liaison person . And attend some positive parenting /calmer happier parenting type workshops
She s a 5 year old small child navigating a split family. Love support understanding ...not harsh punishments.

Tbh if you are the primary carer of your 5yo step daughter as you say even though her mum is around and the relationship between her mum and dad isn't good then there is way more complexity to these relationships than your post implies. I work with families like yours all the time, this little five year old girl is not in a happy place. She needs professional help, not a step mum posting on an Internet forum about her telling lies, shame on you.

She needs professional help, not a step mum posting on an Internet forum about her telling lies, shame on you.

How dare a SM ask for help hey

Toesinwater, op is asking for advice, She is allowed to. No shame to be had.