AIBU This is so heart breaking! **Thread contains article about Poppi Worthington - title edited by MNHQ**

[Meadowflowers]

How can this man be getting away with this. What a beautiful baby and her life is now over because of that monster!.
I've been in tears this morning reading it. In fact I couldn't finish reading it. What is the system coming to???

In cases like these I believe we should bring the guillotine or hanging back, cases where the is evidence that they 100% done it, an eye for an eye. Why let this monster life, granted in jail, hopefully, when that poor innocent baby's life has been cruelly ripped away from her down to a perverts sick fantasies, not to mention how much is going to cost to keep this sick twisted individual behind bars. Let him feel even a fraction of what that baby did. She didn't deserve to die. But he does.

@missmorleyme

In cases like these I believe we should bring the guillotine or hanging back, cases where the is evidence that they 100% done it, an eye for an eye.

What do you suggest? Do we have different grades of guilty verdict? What about percentages? You're guilty, 100%, off to be hanged. You're guilty but we're only 75% sure, prison for you. Do you honestly think that would work?

In the eyes of the law if you're found guilty you did it, I don't think we can have different levels of punishment dependent on how confident we are we got the right verdict.

And even in cases where it seemed 100% sometimes it's not and the person convicted didn't do it. Can't give someone their life back after execution.

My mistake, I must have misread re children being removed. SS involvement was pretty constant though, so there certainly were issues.

Hes also in tax payer paid witness protection. Makes my blood boil.

My mistake, I must have misread re children being removed. SS involvement was pretty constant though, so there certainly were issues.

It's normal for there to be further SS monitoring and involvement after one child is removed, and, as a care leaver, Poppi's mother would rightly be regarded as vulnerable. But, again, Poppi's mother's quality of care is really not relevant here. The household was assessed as being slightly chaotic, not surprisingly given it contained six children, but her care was always assessed as adequate and loving. Paul Worthington had no history or suspicion of sexual offences and SS involvement was not related to him. No other child was found to have evidence of sexual or physical abuse. The only thing Poppi's mother has to do with all of this is that she was taken in by a skilled abuser. How many women on here have been taken in likewise despite being less vulnerable?

Paul Worthington is also not in "witness protection". He's not a witness testifying against the Mob, and he was just sketched and photographed when he gave evidence to the inquest, which would render any change of name and location spectacularly pointless. Were he in prison, he would probably be segregated for his own safety, but he's not in prison, he's not charged with anything, and he's certainly not "in witness protection". At most he probably has some police monitoring to ward off harassment.

I'm not even going to respond to most of missmorley's post, which is, shall we politely say, uninformed, but in reference to "cases where they 100% done it", this case is rather far from that. Things that are still unclear:

• what exactly Poppi died of (autopsy showed no clear cause; everyone talking about her cause of death is speculating)
• whether the anal trauma was the result of assault (two pathologists involved in the autopsy testified, one is confident it was, one was not and felt it could have been caused by the constipation reported by Paul Worthington)
• whether, if she was raped, it was by fingers, penis, or object (the pathologist who thinks assault says penis or penis-shaped object, other people think digital; bit pointless looking for semen evidence if it wasn't penile)

There isn't even sufficient evidence to say with certainty that a crime was committed. Two courts have concluded, on the balance of probability, that Poppi suffered an anal assault of some kind, and Paul Worthington was the only person in a position to have committed it, but that's as far as anyone can go. He is not going to prison, unless he suddenly confesses and positively begs to be sent down.

It's an absolutely horrible case, that poor girl. But I'm shocked at posters trying to blame the mother in some way for what he did. There were issues but there's no evidence she knew that Poppi's father was abusing her.

My DSis and I were abused by my father. (Thankfully he's dead.) My DM insists that she didn't know. She always worked very long hours so that's definitely possible. She was distant and not really involved in our lives, so guilty of emotional neglect, but I don't blame her for what my father did. He did it, he was to blame.

I’ve never understood why people call for the death penalty. How is that a punishment for the person? It’s an early release from punishment. Lifetime of prison is far more of a punishment. You kill them and they’re no longer feeling any consequences for their actions. Just the victims and their family who get to go on suffering. And of course the person who excuted the criminal. Who benefits from that? The criminal.

This really upset me...I have family that work in social services so I am pretty hardened to things but this just shocked me to my core and made me feel angry.
We don't know what the mothers role in this was - sounds as though she did hear the baby scream loudly at around 2am, but didn't go to her and seems to have slept downstairs that night.
They were obviously strange things going on in that home, the police took various photos of the downstairs because it was in a chaotic state. There was evidence that he had been watching pornography that night. I can't help but think more home visits from health visitors could maybe raise red flags.
Poppi wasn't on social services radar but she should've been, a health visitor or similar role going into the home maybe at 6month or 12 month check might start to raise some flags. 95% of visits might be fine but there maybe those that are putting their children at risk but escape the systems decide to help or stop things from happening.

I don't agree with the death penalty at all but regarding prison - paedophiles don't feel remorse and rarely express remorse. They have a sexual attraction to children and often even believe that children were also attracted to them. It sounds crazy, and is crazy, and is why prison doesn't rehabilitate or punish them, it simply inhabits them from re-offending.
I doubt this was the first time her father had abused her or thought of abusing her, or another child- and the suffocation is unrelated (but just further demonstrates the lack of care she was receiving). I know I sound clinical but I've worked in the sector and this is the reality.

Is he actually in "witness protection"? I've read he is in hiding but not that he's changed his identity etc

ambs The one issue with increased health visitor visits is that people don't want them. You read it on mumsnet all the time and posters are told not to engage. You might be happy to be monitored more closely but the vast majority of people wouldn't like it. There is no easy answer to that.

I don't agree with the death penalty at all but regarding prison - paedophiles don't feel remorse and rarely express remorse.

Prison isn’t about making them feel remorse. It’s about restricting their liberty and keeping vulnerable people safe. The loss of liberty is their punishment. Not having access to victims is their punishment.

I do understand that vigilantism is a bad thing because the wrong person could be attacked, I just cannot see this scumbag as even human.

I think it is worth noting that not seeing people as human is EXACTLY what enables people to rape and murder each other.

The father in this case didn't see his child as human and hence removed from her the rights she was entitled to her.

Do people really want to join him on that side of the line?

We don't know what the mothers role in this was - sounds as though she did hear the baby scream loudly at around 2am, but didn't go to her and seems to have slept downstairs that night.

We do. She didn't have one. She was downstairs with at least one of the other children - apparently she often slept on the couch. As far as she knew Poppi was upstairs safely in the care of her father. She heard Poppi cry out and (what she thought was) her father go to her, then shortly afterwards he came downstairs with Poppi limp. There genuinely seems to be a tacit feeling among some that she must be guilty of SOMETHING, if only an unforgivable failure to use her maternal telepathy to know what was happening.

I dare say some of her decisions as a parent would have made my eyebrows disappear into my hairline. But she is not responsible, even tangentially, for Poppi's death. She has been robbed of her child, and deserves our sympathy.

The Judge in the family court case weighed up the competing evidence from Dr Armour and the other medical expert. He went line by line through the areas of disagreement and preferred the evidence of the former.

Whilst the Judge agreed there was no previous indication that PW was a sadist, paedophile or child abuser at all, the simple fact remained that something terrible happened to Poppi whilst she was with her father which caused anal trauma and bleeding from her anus.

I suspect how she may have suffocated which differs from the view of the Judge and he had the evidence before him. He watched the witnesses give evidence and their conduct in court. He did say that he found the behaviour of PW in court as "off", crying on and off and trying to gain eye contact with the Judge so he could observe his sorrow.

I do not believe he will ever be brought to justice. Local MP John Woodcock has asked for an investigation into the police's conduct but I believe this ship may have sailed, it already having been looked at by the IPCC.

Queen I’m getting confused by your posts re the mother- the SCR detailed her neglecting the children and SS involvement was primarily around her leaving them
In the care of unsuitable people and continuing to do so after SS told her not to.

I do understand what you’re getting at- that she didn’t rape and kill her baby - but I don’t think anyone is saying she did

cherry do you have a link to the SCR

www.cumbria.gov.uk/eLibrary/Content/Internet/537/6683/7080/4253494137.pdf

No worries I found it.

It pretty much says that she appeared to be coping and competant

Paul Worthington had been informally interviewed by the police a number of years earlier regarding his association with someone suspected of offences against children. He had two children from a former relationship(s) he had no contact with and there was some kind of allegation made by a step son, later retracted. There were definite flags regarding this much older man with that kind of history moving in with a known to be vulnerable Mother and her three children, then going on to have a further three children with her including the twins.

It is vital that some sort of charges are brought against Paul Worthington for justice for Poppi but also so that he has a record and can be monitored. He will offend again.

In cases like these I believe we should bring the guillotine or hanging back, cases where the is evidence that they 100% done it, an eye for an eye.

@MissMorley - the evidence isn't that the father has 100% done it - it doesn't even reach the much lower threshold required in order to prosecute.

And even if he were prosecuted, realistically the most serious charge that could be brought would be manslaughter, unless he confessed to murder. Even when we did have the death sentence it hadn't been available for manslaughter for well over 100 years.

not to mention how much is going to cost to keep this sick twisted individual behind bars.

He isn't behind bars, so it's costing us no more than it costs to keep every other citizen.

Just incase nobody can be arsed to actually read it, there is no ongoing extensive history of neglect concerns made or referrals outside of the history with child 1 then what looks like auto proceedings with child 2 which found her to be fit to parent it looks like that’s where social care involvement and concerns stopped.

The main focus appears to be on the mothers childhood now with the best will in the world you cannot keep open active cases on previous care leavers where no concerns have been raised and they have already been found to be fit to parent by a court just becuse the mother experanced child abuse as a kid it would cause outrage cost a fortune and there are no grounds.

The mother was far from competent but Social Services are far too often remiss themselves. The thinking appears to be leaving the child with “mum” and “dad” if at all possible. Turning a blind eye time, in other words.

The mother must have known what the monstrous father was doing. I absolutely refuse to believe that these women - whose children are abused so horribly - do not know. They do know.

What happened to this latest vulnerable child is sickening in a 21st century UK where an organisation called Social Servuces exists to ensure their protection. I despair.

...Services

rose How was she not competant.

There is not one bit of evidence or even report to suggest that outside of her teens she did anything wrong

She would have had a lot of involvement with various services because of the amount of kids involved

Was a baby not removed from her once upon a time? It takes a lot for Social Services to take that step. She would always be suspect after that.