AIBU This is so heart breaking! **Thread contains article about Poppi Worthington - title edited by MNHQ**

[Meadowflowers]

How can this man be getting away with this. What a beautiful baby and her life is now over because of that monster!.
I've been in tears this morning reading it. In fact I couldn't finish reading it. What is the system coming to???

Needs, queen- apologies I have just re read the SCR and I am mixing her case up with another SCR I read with some similarities- I believe at the time child N hadn’t been identified as Poppi which might be why I was confused

Sadly I think you're right, QueenAravis. The awful thing is that he's probably going to hurt another child, but then he's hardly the first offender to evade justice, is he?

It's such a tragic case. I feel so sorry for Poppi's mother, the way she's being vilified. She doesn't deserve it, she's surely been through enough.

Oh well, if it’s not a huge history of neglect, then that’s fine then

Of course it’s not ok, a child died.

But it is massively unfair to put the blame at the door of a mother who going by all documented evidence was doing ok.

Granted there is the issue of the fracture detected after death but if I recall correctly there is no evidence to suggest it was none accidental or whose care the child was in at the time it occurred.
Yes it was missed but I know several parents all perfectly normal decent respectable ones who have not realised a young child had a broken bone and we do not know what signs of an issue there would have been I know when my own none verbal child broke his arm it was detected by chance as he had been taken to hospital by me (after being in the care of his school with on site medical staff all day) because I was concerned about a head injury.

That baby is dead and it is the fault of the party who abused her

FWIW I broke my foot a few years ago and didn’t know until a year later when I broke it again and eventually went to A&E a few days later. The X-ray showed I had broken it the year previously and “rebroken” it this time. At the time I just thought i’d Bruised it from going over on it. I limped for a few days and then was fine. If Poppi was only 13 months? When she died then how likely is it she was even walking for anyone to notice a broken leg?

“A teenage mother who has a baby taken from her for protection, of one form or another, is not blameless.”

Well there are many reasons a teenage mother might have a child removed for reasons that are nothing to do with anything tne mother could be blamed for. In this case it seems that a young teen mother was drinking with the child in her care, so yes, she was at fault,

However, that was in the context of that particular case.

It doesn’t mean she is ‘not blameless’ for something that happens years later!

I find it desperately sad.

There has been a lot of talk of mitigation for murder on this thread. Do women who have had fractured and abuive childhoods get any mitigation for ill-judged drinking as 17 yo parents, or choosing the wrong man? No, they get vilified.

@Lizzie48

he's hardly the first offender to evade justice, is he?

Probably happens a lot. Evidence missed or case collapses on a technicality and so on. The smug bastards get to say how their life had been ruined and how awful it's been for them.

The combination of fractures Poppi sustained was found to be unusual for a toddler of her age as it would take significant force to cause them and a 13 month old getting around or playing in a rough and tumble way with siblings wouldn’t have that kind of momentum. It was also noted by one of the Doctors that they would expect the child's reaction to such a serious injury to be noticeable and prolonged as she would have been in a lot of pain.

Whether accidental or non accidental both parents were considered by the Family Court judgement to have been negligent in not noticing the leg injuries as they claimed and failing to seek medical attention.

Ahh right, I assumed it was just one fracture but that’s obviously not the case.

Surely with the multiple fractures there’s evidence enough to get both parents prosecuted for neglect.

The combination of fractures Poppi sustained was found to be unusual for a toddler of her age as it would take significant force to cause them and a 13 month old getting around or playing in a rough and tumble way with siblings wouldn’t have that kind of momentum. It was also noted by one of the Doctors that they would expect the child's reaction to such a serious injury to be noticeable and prolonged as she would have been in a lot of pain

Is that not a slight misrepresentation given the actual finding in the judgement

Is says they either knew or ought to have known.

Not exactly as clear as described

Needs No misrepresentation, further detail is given in the published documents from the first Family Court proceedings in 2014.

The fractures were flagged by one Doctor as a possible sign of abuse but other possible causes were also suggested as was the medical testimony I posted above. Ultimately both parents denied any knowledge of an accident that could have caused the injuries and it couldn't be established whether Poppi had been in the care of both, just the Mother (as the Father had been away for some of the time period identified for the fractures occurring) or extended family. It was however found that they were negligent in not noticing her injury and not seeking medical attention.

I’ve just posted a screen shit of the actual finding in that aspect from the judgement you are referring to. The actual finding is not as clear as you maintain

Ha great typo there

Needs You haven't included a screen shot of the medical findings by multiple physicians, understandably as it's not appropriate here. The family court documents are available for anyone who wants to look them up though they obviously make for difficult reading.

Whether the fractures were a sign of abuse was disputed, the fact that they were unusual in a child of Poppi's age, that it would take significant force (accidental or not accidental) and that she would be clearly in pain for some time afterward was not disputed.

Hence the finding the parents were negligent in not taking her to the Doctor whoever was caring for her at the time the injury occurred.

I didn’t include it because it’s not a finding it forms part of the information and evidence that’s the judge used to make the finding but it is not the finding

It was acknowledged that not one of the adults who had a reasonable amount of time with the baby not one reported or claimed they had any knowledge of any injury or indication of injury and one of the doctors stated he wouldn’t blame anybody for not noticing any swelling.

Whilst I’m pretty sure that most of us if we had a grumpy 1ish year old which she would have been at the time would more than likely see a HCP and it’s bad that nobody did, but not one person noticed any signs of injury and the baby was about the right age for teething possibly not very mobile it’s noted that if she was crawling it wouldn’t have hindered her.
The finding is not one that surprises me because face it that’s a slam dunk if you ever saw one but if that was a stand alone issue it would have been potentially likely to get a understanding response from professionals involved so I don’t think it indicates that the mother was dreadful

Cuppaoftea

...Whether the fractures were a sign of abuse was disputed, the fact that they were unusual in a child of Poppi's age, that it would take significant force (accidental or not accidental) and that she would be clearly in pain for some time afterward was not disputed.

Hence the finding the parents were negligent in not taking her to the Doctor whoever was caring for her at the time the injury occurred.

Given that the mother was one of those parents, she was certainly negligent when it came to Poppi’s dreadful pain.

The same dreadful pain that no adult that had contact with her noticed or wouldn’t have hindered her if she wasn’t walking those mobile and the doctor giving evidence said he wouldn’t blame anybody for not noticing any swelling?

It’s not great it’s not even good but to use it to bolster the she was shockingly bad why did they let her keep any of the kids ever her history of neglect was longstanding and ongoing and she must have know he would sexually abuse the baby stance is ridiculous

Riiight. Of course you must be right.

It’s in the judgement clear as day and her not being incompetent and not totally unsuitable to parent and not long term horribly neglectful is in the serious case review

Not convinced she is blameless. Nobody will ever know, I suspect. Most mums know if their baby is even slightly in pain. And why was she sleeping downstairs? And didn't go to find out why her child was screaming?

Are we really going to claim that all families under social services who are deemed competent really give or are capable of giving their children the life they deserve

Of course not there are so many families that are so dysfunctional and they can’t take all those children and put them in care or monitor what is happening to those children all the time

Sadly Poppies mother for many reasons had a lot of ss involvement she was vulnerable PW saw that

Indeed. Why?

@ Clawdy