AIBU This is so heart breaking! **Thread contains article about Poppi Worthington - title edited by MNHQ**

[Meadowflowers]

How can this man be getting away with this. What a beautiful baby and her life is now over because of that monster!.
I've been in tears this morning reading it. In fact I couldn't finish reading it. What is the system coming to???

And are you going to kid yourself that child sex abusers are always obvious always visible monsters and that our idea of good enough parenting is enough to protect kids from them?

Because by wanting to insist that despite the actual evidence we have access to saying otherwise that she is somehow at fault or somehow failed at being good enough, that is exactly what you are doing.

The armchair detectiving about the mother is an excellent example of why vigilante justice is such a bad idea. After he'd been dealt with, I wonder how long it would take self appointed administrators of justice to go after her, fuelled by nothing other than self-importance and things they've made up.

Ideally what would come out of this is for it to be more difficult for incompetent police to do as those who were demoted did, and avoid further scrutiny by retiring. I wonder how often this sort of fuck up happens? The cuts to police budgets aren't going to help with that either. Likely we will see more mistakes as resources and staff are more thinly stretched.

RIP Poppi.

Human rights are protected by laws. But what is it to be human? There is no definitive definition handed down to us, just a concept made possible by society. Law itself doesn't just enshrine concepts and theories but creates the definition itself. Liberals claim that humans are born equal and have unalienable rights. However no man can be a man outside of society. And it is society that creates the definition of human, and the laws that protect these so called unalienable human rights. On the basis of law itself this "man" cannot be deemed human and therefore I see no reason why he should be granted protection. As something outside of society he should be thrown to the wolves.

Drivel from start to finish mini. You sound like a spliffed out A level philosophy student who hasn't bothered doing their essay properly, and is instead resorting to bibliography salad in the vain hope the tutor won't notice. Honestly, Marxists can be complete fuckwits sometimes.

I have never said she was at fault I have said I don’t think given her background and lack of support she has in her life she would be able to give her children the care they deserved

Adequate care shouldn’t be considered enough and it clearly says in that report that all families should have the same levels set for them they don’t we know that.

Families that have had generations of abuse and chaos levels that would be considered unacceptable in families that haven’t had this those levels of chaos become the norm and nothing out of the ordinary is seen with different men coming and out of her life or
her children’s life

She was a child when she became a mother, a child from a family that wouldn’t have been able to
support her and didn’t in the way she needed, she has then had a number of children at a very young age (not sure how many partners three I think) when has this woman had time to grow emotionally herself

This cycle needs to be broken (for a year after poppies death there was no intervention) chaotic families such as her family create another generation of chaos and far vulnerable children

I am well aware abuse can happen and does happen in what is seen as the most stable of families and often known about and hidden but families such as hers generation after generation of abuse sexual and violence and often levels of poverty creates a norm that isn’t the norm and shouldn't be

Some of these man-Apologist posts make me sick. How dare you blame the mother because the father is a pedophile. HE WAS AT FAULT HERE.

Haven't seen any posts which are even remotely "man apologist." Most of us want to see him suffer - for the rest of his disgusting, contemptible life. Doesn't mean the mother is above criticism though.

We do not demand more than adaquate because the result of that tends to be social clensing.a d where do you draw the line when it comes down to differences in parenting

Plus also, where are all these children removed from parents who are merely adequate going to go? There's not a surplus of good, experienced foster parents just waiting to take over. Outcomes for children in care are already really poor. They're hardly likely to improve by adding tens of thousands more to their number.

A child with a fractured arm would cry fgs...That no one noticed the child was in pain is frankly unbelievable

RoseWhiteTips simply not true.

I am currently in court in a case where a 6 month baby has multiple fractures (only picked up on an xray) and is the happiest bonniest baby with absolutely no sign of discomfort. You would never know.

Now you are arguing about social cleansing

No let’s just leave these families who have vulnerable children who become more often than not vulnerable adults to get on with it

After all not all children can expect a good life where they are nurtured to become adults with bright futures who where they make decisions and their self esteem isn’t so damaged they follow the destructive paths of their parents

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed what's your solution then? What do we do with all the families that are only providing "adequate care"?

That such families get far more support though I know many will not want this it’s needed if not for the adults but for the children

That the bar isn’t set so low for such families

That red flags are not ignored and one being a parents background sadly history was repeating itself

You cannot force someone to accept what ever you would perceive as support because they had a shitty childhood or because they do not do things the way you would like them to.

Peoples opinions on what’s best or good when it comes to most things but especially parenting can differ greatly.

Take me as an example I had a seriously abusive childhood I have more children than average should I be forced to accept ‘support’ because someone like you thinks I ought to despite the fact that outside of a malicious allegation made by my abuser when I was a teen mum no concerns or issues have ever been raised about my parenting?

Here’s a clue for you there are about 50 reasons why a family support worker would be most confused to be rocking up to my house in the absence of any safeguarding concern being raised to offer me support.

Oh here we go with our personal experiences so what I have was bought in in an abusive home and in care this isn’t aboit me it’s about families that have generations of systematic abuse and chaos

She was just seen as giving adequate care becuase the bar is so low with such families

The writing was in the wall 7 children by the age of 25 a few partners unsupportive family a child when she became a mother

I used my situation to highlight how the actual system works not as a personal anacdote.

“The writing was in the wall” I assume by that you mean her situation means a child sex abuser abusing and killing her child was inevitable?

So given your childhood because if your a care leaver as well is it written on the wall for you as well or if your Mum/dad/care giver had a decent childhood is the bar somehow different for you?

Do you know some of the things that lead to lower income large families having referrals made to children’s services that would be laughed at by nice middle class families?

There is one school of thought that can quite successfully argue that families like hers are far more visible to services than other types of families.

If her kids had that fairly typical middle class scruffy look that’s would more than likely these days result in a concern being raised if she was late for school collection or pick up more than once that would do it as would not taking up the fully optional HV services little things like that when you are from a large or poor family or a care leaver are treated as evidence you are potentially not coping where as they are ignored if your well spoken educated or have signs of education unless of course you regularly whiff of booze.

Yet she managed to get through years without so much of a hint of a referral and the SCR didn’t identify any actual aspect of her care that had not been acted on by professionals, they don’t even know that her history impacted on anything at all it’s just a guess that it must have done she even contributed towards the SCR and was commended for doing so.

My childhood was very different to hers but I certainly had ss involvement why becuase it was seen in my best interests my mother hated it so what her judgements were poor (not from her upbringing but becuase she is a very selfish becuase she chooses to be)

I didn’t go on to repeat my mother’s pattern (not that she had a child that young) but if I had a child young they would have been involved, if I was underage they would have been involved if I went on to have a number of children with different partners I would hope they would be involved as I think it would show my judgement and ability to understand my situation would be poor

I possibly would have got that support as my family isn’t like her the bar was set higher

That shouldn’t be the case it should be equal for all children and that includes Poppies mother when she first became a mother herself

having children with different partners is not in itself a safeguarding concern. We no longer live in a time when we decide women are crap parents because different sperm comes into contact with their eggs.
Even factoring in her being a care leaver added into that doesn’t make that an issue.
I may not be correct about this but but I’m pretty sure she was over the age of consent when baby 1 occurred I think 17 but as I said I could be wrong on that.

It should have been in her situation she was a child herself when she became a mother a child that has highly unlikely grown to being emotionally mature and confident to make decisions that were in her best interests or her children’s

The history repeated itself this is what I meant by the writing was on becuase chaos is the norm her vulnerability is the norm and sadly that puts in her a position where men like Poppies father prey on their victims

You do understand that with baby 1 and baby 2 she would have had a lot of intervention don’t you?

When it got to baby 2 she for what ever reason met the criteria to convince children’s services she was doing ok and convince a family court the same they also stayied in her life long enough after for the order relating to baby 2 to be discharged with the support of children’s services

What else exactly is it you think they could have done to her under the circumstances we are aware about?

The report makes it quite clear that all families should be treated equally why becuase they are not

Why becuase the expectations are lower but she was following a pattern set before her that was probably expected

Families likes hers left to repeat the same patterns vulnerable children growing up to be vulnerable adults and the cycle goes on she was vulnerable and that makes her children vulnerable

There could have been and shoud have been more intervening could this have stopped what happened maybe not but we don’t know

I get the impression you don’t like social services involvement unless maybe it’s absolutely necessary it shouldn’t need to get to that point becuase when it has far too much unnecessary hurt and harm has already been done

Then the impression you get is wrong I was a social worker for a long time.
I’m just not a fan of women being blamed for men’s conduct when there is no evidence to suggest they failed no evidence to suggest they hid or covered up anything and no evidence to suggest she was a bad parent who should never have been allowed to keep her kids.

I’m also not a fan of social workers being blamed for not acting when they haven’t done anything wrong and they had nothing to act on.

I have never blamed her

And I am surprised being an ex social worker that you don’t feel families are treated all the same maybe things are different in different areas (and worked in dv) that report so rings true the bar being set differently and who suffers