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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Women Baring their beasts at a fire engine......

295 replies

Hannah4banana · 03/01/2018 15:51

I was nightshift on New Years Eve into new year's day in the city centre tre. I couldn't believe it when a group of drunk ladies decided to flash at the guys in the fire engine I was in. I actually had to lock the cab door as they were trying to climb in when we were stopped at traffic lights.
Why the hell would anyone think that's acceptable in an emergency vehicle.
I was mortified for them!

OP posts:
DreamyMcDreamy · 04/01/2018 14:11

On an individual level, I wouldn't presume to say how any man might feel when confronted by those drunk women. Yes, he might legitimately feel harassed (there you go Dreamy).

There you go then, you do see that it's harassment on some level in there. Which is progress, as you didn't before. It was just poor behaviour according to you.

TheGoldenBowl · 04/01/2018 14:13

Ha ha! Nice back pedalling!

Cantuccit · 04/01/2018 14:14

It is cheap and tawdry behaviour, but breast flashing is probably equivalent to mooning Envy ---> not envy. Rather than penis flaring.

TheGoldenBowl · 04/01/2018 14:16

I think you might be confusing me with another poster Dreamy

I have never denied it's harassment. At all. Ever.

I came on the thread to point put the absurdity of the comments about things like this compromising our fight against Weinstein's ilk.

That is all.

DreamyMcDreamy · 04/01/2018 14:17

Ha ha! Nice back pedalling!

Confused

I saw the quoted bit after posting so did another post.
I'm agreeing with you there, you dafty Confused

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 04/01/2018 14:18

On an individual level, I wouldn't presume to say how any man might feel when confronted by those drunk women. Yes, he might legitimately feel harassed (there you go Dreamy)

The act itself is sexual harassment. It does not matter if the men don't think so. It is like wolf whistling or cat calling. It is an uninvited act with sexualised intentions.

DreamyMcDreamy · 04/01/2018 14:21

The act itself is sexual harassment. It does not matter if the men don't think so. It is like wolf whistling or cat calling. It is an uninvited act with sexualised intentions.

THANK YOU! Sense enters the thread again!

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 04/01/2018 14:28

granny I never said tops off in supermarkets happens 'all the time', I'm sure this harassment of firemen doesn't happen all the time either. I don't get cat-called 'all the time'. It's just annoying when it happens. It's starting to smell like 'justification' on this thread and it's pretty irritating to be honest.

It wasn't just you but jaygee61 as well with a 'chortle chortle' post. WTF? Confused

TheGoldenBowl · 04/01/2018 14:35

Yes, ok, the act is sexual harassment. But has anyone actually denied this?

There are all these accusations of 'minimising' and 'double standards'. But I think the actual issue is that, though we must (for, if nothing else, fear of being called out by Dreamy) use the term 'harassment', the reality os that, all other things being equal, sexual harassment from man to woman is more frightening than the other way round.

There. I've said it.

It's not 'double standards' to say men are (as a class) bigger and stronger, much more likely (statistically) to follow up harassment with violence and able to cause the sort of harm of which women are biologically incapable.

So, yes, these women are harassing. They're potentially causing danger.

But this is not comparable to a man sexually intimidating a woman. It's a world away.

LynetteScavo · 04/01/2018 14:35

Some drunk people sexually harassed some people who were working.

At the end of the day, that's what happened.

I personally think women do such things as they are trying to be on a level playing field with men. Probably not the best way to go about equality IMO.

If my DH or DS we're subjected to the flaunting of breasts of drunk women whilst working, I don't think they'd find it amusing.

TheGoldenBowl · 04/01/2018 14:40

Don't disagree with any of that Lynette.

In fact, it's likely the women involved don't even realise they're not on an even playing field; they don't sound all that enlightened.

DreamyMcDreamy · 04/01/2018 14:43

Yes, ok, the act is sexual harassment. But has anyone actually denied this?

Yes, there's a few on this thread. Including you - OK, you're now saying that you seeing it's sexual harrassment, which is good, but you weren't earlier on.
You were all "but breasts aren't sexual" several pages back.

grannytomine · 04/01/2018 14:49

granny I never said tops off in supermarkets happens 'all the time', I'm sure this harassment of firemen doesn't happen all the time either. I don't get cat-called 'all the time'. It's just annoying when it happens. It wasn't just you, people seemed to be going on about men being topless in a supermarket and I haven't seen that, I sort of think it would be more understandable where I live due to holiday makers. As I said I only ever see it on the beach on very close to the beach (a green between the beach and the road). Anyway I am as entitled to say I don't see it as other people are to say they do.

I have seen young women coming down to breakfast in pyjamas but haven't seen them in shops or picking up from school which is something else I have heard about on MN.

TheGoldenBowl · 04/01/2018 14:58

Dreamy

Please find and quote where I said it's not harassment.

As for your other points, well, I wasn't exactly "all breasts are not sexual" but I do stand by my point that we should challenge the assumption that they are inherently sexual. Because we should.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 04/01/2018 15:04

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe
granny I never said tops off in supermarkets happens 'all the time',

I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to this spectacular example of whataboutery by MrsTerryPratchett.

I don't agree with women sexually harassing men either BTW but I have to see moobs all the fucking time and I'm not even a firefighter.

statetrooperstacey · 04/01/2018 15:04

The fireman in my town do 'the tour' on thurs nights ( student night) fri and sat nights. Which means that if they happen to be heading back to the station after a call out they take the scenic route through the busy pub streets. This is purely to see as many tits as possible.

DreamyMcDreamy · 04/01/2018 15:05

As for your other points, well, I wasn't exactly "all breasts are not sexual" but I do stand by my point that we should challenge the assumption that they are inherently sexual. Because we should.

Again - What was the intention of the women getting their breasts out for the lads? To challenge a cultural norm? Or to sexually titillate as they're firemen so must be up for it and course they want to see a pair of tits?
More than likely the latter (trying to clamber into the cab kind of says this.)
Which is because they are seen as sexual in this context EVEN BY THE WOMEN THEMSELVES!

Please find and quote where I said it's not harassment
There's just no point,as you clearly refuse to grasp it. The fact you've gone straight back into "it's harassment" mode and no mention of sexual....

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 04/01/2018 15:06

In fact, it's likely the women involved don't even realise they're not on an even playing field; they don't sound all that enlightened

So they can be excused for sexual harassment because they are a bit thick?

JanetsPlain · 04/01/2018 15:08

Screams 'desperate' to me, which generally isn't attractive to either sex but each to their own :).

grannytomine · 04/01/2018 15:10

Oh dear, I had a bad night last night (arthritis pain) and I am getting confused at who said what to who when. I think I will go and have a painkiller and a nap and stop confusing other people as much as I'm confusing myself.

DreamyMcDreamy · 04/01/2018 15:47

all other things being equal, sexual harassment from man to woman is more frightening than the other way round.
So it's only sexual harassment if you feel frightened or threatened?
Sexual harrassment is unwanted sexual attention in any form,surely, regardless of how big/powerful/small/tall/wiry/whatever.
Going by your logic any strapping, large physically powerful woman can never be harassed by a weedy little 4 foot bloke who couldn't say boo to a goose.

TheGoldenBowl · 04/01/2018 16:49

Gosh. I turn my back for a few minutes, and all sorts of words are being put in my mouth!

Dreamy I've explained this to you already: it's not (obviously!) that the women getting their tits out are seeking to challenge a sexist social norm. No. But we should be sophisticated enough to analyse all the factors at play. Some posters were very quick to compare with men - refs to penises came about on PAGE ONE. Cue a discussion about whether breasts are inherently sexual. Cue my point that we shouldn't blindly swallow the "breasts are sexual" mantra, just because The Sun and its ilk fed us that for years.

So that's why I said we should challenge that social norm - because it's part of the argument, NOT because the women involved were mavericks pushing social change.

With me so far?

Then you say there's "no point" finding a quote of me denying it's harassment Grin Hmmm. Could it actually because I haven't said that??!

Here, just to avoid confusion: It is sexual harassment.

But also: it's a drop in the ocean compared with the general backdrop of male to female sexual harassment. I know that is irrelevant to the actual individual men affected in this case, and I support theire right to be protected. But it's NOT irrelevant when you've got clowns on thus thread sadly shaking their heads and saying how this behaviour from women calls into question our fight against Weinstein and his type.

THAT and THAT ALONE was the point I'm making, and yet you've insisted on arguing me every step of the way with stupid semantic games. Why??

TheGoldenBowl · 04/01/2018 16:52

Dreamy

Fgs. Do you understand anything about sexual inequality?
I feel like I'm giving a Feminism For Beginners class here. Your analogy with the weedy bloke is ridiculous. Do some reading.

Aragog · 04/01/2018 16:54

ah i don't believe for a second your male colleagues were half as uncomfortable as they let you believe. sorry

Why? Why not? imagine many men don't overly want that happening when they are at work. Why would you assume all men are happy to be flashed in this manner, especially when at work with their colleagues?

Dh would be uncomfortable if a random woman approached him at work and flashed her breasts at him. It's really not on.

TheGoldenBowl · 04/01/2018 16:58

You need to be able to discuss men and women as groups to understand the point I'm making.

Yes. In the OP's case, the women were in the wrong. Sometimes women will be in the wrong. Sometimes women will be perpetrators. That's FUCKING OBVIOUS.

But I wasn't defending those individual women.

I'm talking about GROUPS.

I have tried to explain precisely why I came on this thread. It wasn't to say the women were in the right. It was to bemoan the stupid use of comparison. It was to point out the nasty undertone of "double standards" bullshit. It was to argue against the sickening statement that women were undoing the fight against Weinstein. FFS.