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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder if I’m just old and possibly on the wrong side of history

328 replies

bambambini · 29/12/2017 19:52

I do wonder if we are possibly seeing the start of a huge shift in society and how people are generally perceived. Many of our young seem to want the future to be different from what we've always had - man/woman, male/female - the binary i guess.

Maybe the future will be where everyone is non binary, where all divisions as we inderstand them are broken down. So you won’t be able to tell for sure what sex anyone is, what body parts they have etc.

I’m critical of the current identity politics debate but that doesn’t mean to say I’m right. Maybe I’m struggling with getting my head around it and accepting it because I’m much older and grew up in different times.

We’ve already seen a huge change in social norms with women getting the vote, the break down of racial segregation, legalisation of homosexuality etc. Maybe identity politics is the natural progression.

OP posts:
ferntwist · 29/12/2017 19:54

YANBU. I’m relatively young and I’ve reached peak trans. Trans activism is a reactionary backlash against the huge gains of women’s liberation and it will be the death of identity politics.

Mumoftwoyoungkids · 29/12/2017 19:55

The thing is though - reproducing is always going to involve “egg meets sperm” and no matter how fluid you are you will only produce a maximum of one of these.

BIWI · 29/12/2017 19:57

Yes, YABU.

And being older doesn't mean you have to accept the notion of the binary.

MakeMisogynyAHateCrime · 29/12/2017 19:59

If being able to think critically is putting me on the “wrong side of history” then so be it.

I know of several HCP leaving their roles because of positions they have been put in regarding this kind of identity politics and although I left for other reasons this kind of stuff would be something to push me out too.
When deluded people are allowed to attack doctors for going about their jobs then it has gone way too far.

Bubbington · 29/12/2017 20:01

I agree and fee the same although most peopleI know in RL don't seem to get it like me, maybe I am wrong?

Original poster
bambambini · 29/12/2017 20:04

The thing is though - reproducing is always going to involve “egg meets sperm” and no matter how fluid you are you will only produce a maximum of one of these.

In the future males might be able to have uterus/womb transplants or whatever they’re called. Foetuses might be gestated outside the body.

OP posts:
lessworriedaboutthecat · 29/12/2017 20:07

I'm really starting to despise what passes for the left today's identity politics. Its dividing society by race, religion, sex, gender etc. Its the whole Gramscian idea of dismantling the existing corrupt cultural hegemony and replacing it with something else. For the left that would be a helpful book written by an old dead guy with a big beard about society should be organised. Sadly for those on the left it will be and that old dead guy with a big beard wont be Karl Marx.
How can you integrate large numbers of people from completely different cultures into a society that can no longer even define what's a man and what's a woman.

"Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad"

lessworriedaboutthecat · 29/12/2017 20:08

I think we're living in a decadent decaying society and we're watching a civilisation die from a thousand cuts in front of our eyes.

SilentlyScreamingAgain · 29/12/2017 20:10

It's funny the way that some people react to identity politics seems to be cyclical. I've been reading up a bit on the American civil rights movement and I took part in the gay liberation movement, so I'm aware that the same arguments are now being made for a third time.

I don't think it has anything to with age, my dad was almost 80 when he died, never having had a racist, homophobic or transphobic thought in his life but most people are conservative and a small proportion of people need another group to hate. The former will get used to the world changing, the latter will move on to another minority while amusingly denying that they ever hated those they hate now.

Original poster
bambambini · 29/12/2017 20:13

I wonder where the push for non binary - where young folk are refusing to be pushed into old categories/stereotypes will be the end of transgender folk. I can understand the desire to be non binary/ gender nkn conforming much more than transgender ideology.

OP posts:
ferntwist · 29/12/2017 20:14

Silently identity politics isn’t just one thing. Trans activists are trampling on women’s rights.

ApplesTheHare · 29/12/2017 20:15

I'm young and usually feel (rightly or wrongly) that I'm on the right side of history but I really can't take any more identity politics/trans talk and feel very right-wing for once for feeling this way Confused

SilentlyScreamingAgain · 29/12/2017 20:18

Silently identity politics isn’t just one thing. Trans activists are trampling on women’s rights.

You know the KKK said that the civil rights movement trampled on white people's rights too? Whenever a group seek to be treated equally another group claim that they will be pushed down the pecking order.

Believeitornot · 29/12/2017 20:18

I think this identity issue is partly the fall out of such strong gender stereotypes.

Girls = pink and fluffy
Boys = blue and strong

Those who don’t fit this mound don’t have a safe space to learn who they are. We’ve got social media, peer pressure on an epic and international scale...

Not explaining myself well, but I have a son. Sometimes he likes playing with “girls” toys but god forbid if his friends found out. Would he then have to be labelled as “trans” in order to “fit in”?

My arguments on this aren’t fully formed yet but I know that I’m not comfortable with trans activism.

lessworriedaboutthecat · 29/12/2017 20:21

I don't think its to do with hate. I don't hate any group of people. I think there is small but vocal group on the fringes of the left that are trying to divide and destroy society so that it can be rebuilt again. What they fail to realise is that if you tear down society you create a vacuum and what fills it may not be what you want.
Look at the Trans thing. Next to nobody in Britain gives a fuck about transsexuals. Its not what people are talking about at the water cooler or in the pub. Trans people having been living amongst us for 50 odd years free from state persecution. There are laws in place protecting them from hate crimes. So why over the last couple of years has this become an issue ?

SilentlyScreamingAgain · 29/12/2017 20:23

Would he then have to be labelled as “trans” in order to “fit in”?

Trans people are ten times more likely to be murdered and twenty times more likely to kill themselves than binary people, where did you get the idea that they 'fit in' more that a child who likes to play with an array of toys?

SilentlyScreamingAgain · 29/12/2017 20:26

There are laws in place protecting them from hate crimes. So why over the last couple of years has this become an issue ?

It'd only since the 1990s that laws to protect trans people from discrimination have come into play, no one could really legally change their sex until then and it was still a long and expensive process.

SilentlyScreamingAgain · 29/12/2017 20:28

However, I do agree that this a bit of a non issue everywhere except MN and in a very few feminist circles. Most people get on with their lives not really caring what's in anyone else's pants.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 29/12/2017 20:29

Trans people are ten times more likely to be murdered

Yet only 8 trans people have been murdered in the UK since 2008.

Meanwhile two women a week are murdered by their partners or ex partners.

Believeitornot · 29/12/2017 20:32

Trans people are ten times more likely to be murdered
Really....

My point is that nowadays, being trans is seen as a safe way of labelling someone when actually they might just be a person who doesn’t fit a stereotype of girl or boy. But they’re still a boy/girl.

As i said, my arguments on this aren’t fully formed yet but my reaction is that I think it’s becoming a bandwagon because of the strong societal stereotypes we’ve had.

PositivelyPERF · 29/12/2017 20:32

Really silent? Could you link to those statistics please and I don't mean just a site that is screaming transphobes at every person that disagrees with their opinion, but a proper link.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 29/12/2017 20:32

It really is amazing that transsexuals make up a very small percentage of the population yet people still insist they are being murdered and killing themselves in droves. How does that work then? Surely if they really were being murdered and killing themselves in epidemic numbers then there wouldn't be any transsexuals left?

Maryz · 29/12/2017 20:33

The trouble with gender politics is that no matter how non-binary everyone else is, men will still be men and top of the pile.

There will be the category "man" (fixed) and "non-man" with the non-men climbing on top of each other to keep women (and their inconvenient child-bearing) at the bottom.

Sex-based protection for women will have gone down the toilet in a couple of years if we carry on this way.

lessworriedaboutthecat · 29/12/2017 20:34

IMO it should be a long and expensive process and something that should only be allowed if all other options such as therapy have been exhausted and then if its signed of by a doctor and a psychologist.
I would also point out that the 90's were twenty years ago so again I say why now. Why are people getting so worked up about something that affects a minuscule section of the population who are not being persecuted in any way shape or form.

guardianfree · 29/12/2017 20:36

SilentlyScreamingAgain
Trans people are NOT more likely to be murdered in the UK. The data does not support this. World wide I believe the statistics relate to sex workers, particularly in Brazil.
In fact, we are more likely to be at risk from sex offenders who are identifying as transgender:

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/09/13/gender-identity-specialists-warn-of-ever-increasing-tide-of-transwoman-sex-offenders/