To wonder if I’m just old and possibly on the wrong side of history

[bambambini]

I do wonder if we are possibly seeing the start of a huge shift in society and how people are generally perceived. Many of our young seem to want the future to be different from what we've always had - man/woman, male/female - the binary i guess.

Maybe the future will be where everyone is non binary, where all divisions as we inderstand them are broken down. So you won’t be able to tell for sure what sex anyone is, what body parts they have etc.

I’m critical of the current identity politics debate but that doesn’t mean to say I’m right. Maybe I’m struggling with getting my head around it and accepting it because I’m much older and grew up in different times.

We’ve already seen a huge change in social norms with women getting the vote, the break down of racial segregation, legalisation of homosexuality etc. Maybe identity politics is the natural progression.

I think the way the arguments are put by those of us who are questioning the trans ideology are usually respectful and thoughtful. I have learnt a lot from the feminist board, even if I don't agree with everything. I find it astonishing that the feminist board is described as a cesspool. I want to thank those who take the time to discuss this issue.

Going back a bit (sorry, I need sleep) I'd like to pick up this from silently because it does have a theoretical validity. And it's better than just being insulted and screamed at.

Men falsely declaring themselves to be trans to access women's space isn't a trans problem, it's a male entitlement/violence problem. A minority group should be asked to give up their hard won right because those not entitled to those rights may take advantage of them. We need to find other ways around the problem.

The difficulty is that men taking advantage of women is not a 'maybe' or an 'if'; it's a certainty. Men always have. It is not a small number or a few isolated incidents, unlike the number of false rape crimes; in my teens, sexual harassment was the normal way men interacted with women and many teens report that now. I ask again, what makes people think that the appalling current rates of sexual harassment and rapes are suddenly magically going to stop? Given the small number of genuine trans people and the number of predatory men who will take advantage, that's what they do, it will not be a small minority of pretend v genuine - they could be almost equal. We won't have accurate figures because the collection of statistics is affected too.

Someone on pg 10 also mentioned the number of male victims of male violence too. Yes, yes, yes, but it's male violence nearly all the time - the number of female on male perpetrators of violence is vanishingly small. Women have had to fight hard to begin to have these problems recognised - harassment levels are only now beginning to be recognised. Why should biological women, who are not a minority - 50% of the population, but committing a tiny percentage of violent crime - have to have our protections, which are limited enough, in effect removed to apparently protect a small minority of biological men who will not acknowledge the risks to us? And how will allowing any biological male who wants to be there into female spaces protect the few genuine transpeople any more than us?

false rape claims

I leave the questions about the whole trans ideology to the intelligentsia among us, but I've never heard anything but thought and reason from them. The contrast with the male-patterned threats from transactivists is clear.

It's sometimes said that the proposed change to the GRA - allowing self-declaration - is already in place in other countries and there has been no increase in assaults on women by men claiming to be trans... anyone got any statistics on this?

Also, young people 'identifying as non-binary' is not necessarily a bad thing. It may be more helpful for those who are confused or unhappy to take the non-binary route as it gets them support and validation without necessarily sending them down the drugs-and-surgery route.

Anecdotally an Irish poster said that it doesn't work out the same in practice as is being demanded here, you don't get males on female wards etc.

It's allowed in Ireland, but the numbers are (so far) very low, so it's gone under the radar. The first Irish sports star beaten by a transgender athlete might wake the country up; otherwise we are going along with the "poor transexuals, they hate their bodies so much they want to chop bits off, let's be nice to them"

We do have our own government supported organisation skewing figures though - this from 2013 quotes the usual high percentage of suicide attempts - but I reckon if you set up an online questionnaire for any group of troubled teenagers (those with autism, depression, eating disorders, bullied, drug dependent, abused etc etc), got them to self-select, and asked them questions about suicide you'd get similar numbers.

After all, why reply if you are happy and settled and content with your lot? They need to have proper matched data studies - but no-one dos those these days [sigh]

The whole of Transgender Equality Network Ireland (TENI) has drunk the Kook-Aid anyway.

... allowing self-declaration - is already in place in other countries and there has been no increase in assaults on women by men claiming to be trans

Wouldn't that depend on how any such offences were recorded, though? If, after self declaration, someone could only be legally described as being of their selected gender, surely that would mean that offences committed by trans men would actually appear to be those of natal women?

It's impossible to record the impact as male crime is reported as female crime. Plus how do you measure the girls and women who stop using public restrooms, stay at home or are uncomfortable.

All the while men continue to be violent women need to keep separate facilities. I mean, we set them up, we are just asking to keep our rights.

Trans activists would have more support from feminists if instead they lobbied for male segregated spaces to be made more safe for them, after all it’s “cis” men that they claim to fear (and rightly so, women have the same fear). But the safety issue is a red herring, what they actually want is validation and therefore women should just shut up and move over. Self ID will let all and any men into women only spaces, making women and trans women alike unsafe. It’s madness.

MadgeMak

Totally agree. The argument that men will target them in male toilets absolutely falls apart with the 'solution' which is to let men in female toilets.

It is a first world "issue", we have become far too comfortable in the West and have to invent "issues" to get offended about or band wagons to jump on. Does anyone really think that in developing nations that this sort of privileged crap is important? Or maybe those people are far more concerned with for example ensuring they can eat that day or drink potable water? Or maybe they are concerned that their children will be subjected to barbaric practices such as breast ironing and/or FGM?

I also think that women in Ireland are currently more concerned about abortion than they are about trans issues.

The argument that men will target them in male toilets absolutely falls apart with the 'solution' which is to let men in female toilets

You're right of course, but unfortunately the ones who feel the argument's fallen apart on this basis are often biological women ... and our opinions seem to count for nothing if there's the slightest chance of TRAs disliking them

"It is a first world "issue", we have become far too comfortable in the West and have to invent "issues" to get offended about or band wagons to jump on.*

I disagree that it's inventing an issue. I think it's prioritising, which is different. By the logic you are using, women would never have had the vote, because in the Edwardian era poor people in the UK were still living in dire conditions and were malnourished. Was voting rights for women just jumping on the bandwagon? Should the suffragettes have forgotten all about votes and concentrated on poverty instead?

treaclesoda - sod off I am just not in the mood for BS "justification"

I disagree with a point you made and I'm told to sod off? You're not actually interested in a discussion at all.

Perhaps some suffragettes felt that by gaining the vote for women, they could subsequently then vote for an individual whose policies were to help the poor. It’s all connected. Your analogy doesn’t really work.

Madge that was kind of what I was trying to say, albeit I didn't explain myself very well. Things are often interconnected, and people are capable of being interested in more than one thing at once. Could apply it to anything really, but the bottom line is that you can't really say 'well until X is sorted out then Y is a made up problem'.

Well it's becoming a first world type of FGM for starters, isn't it?

[arf] at telling people who are having a discussion to sod off

Treacle that depends on whether you think all the gender identity stuff is an actual real problem for the people claiming it is, for example trans activists crying that misgendering is literal violence. I don’t think that is a real problem in the scheme of things.

I think gender identity stuff is a real problem.

In a world where we are encouraging girls to go into MST, encouraging them to do more sport, encouraging them into politics, isn't it an issue if women's teams, women's political positions, women's scholarships and other women's spaces are taken over by men.

Treacle that depends on whether you think all the gender identity stuff is an actual real problem for the people claiming it is, for example trans activists crying that misgendering is literal violence. I don’t think that is a real problem in the scheme of things.

No, I don't think that is a real problem either. However, I do think that it's a huge problem that vocal transactivists get to trample all over women and their concerns.

I think we are broadly in agreement.

treaclesoda - sod off I am just not in the mood for BS "justification

Why so rude? Don't you have any argument you can make? It was a pretty fatuous point you made.