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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that Ian Huntley is most definitely not a woman?

525 replies

ATeardropExplodes · 28/12/2017 17:09

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/15/call-lian-child-killer-ian-huntley-has-told-inmates-call-feminine/

If anyone has any evidence to convince me otherwise please do enlighten me, thanks in advance.

OP posts:
LizzieSiddal · 28/12/2017 21:34

It causes psychological distress to a trans woman to be referred to as 'he' (whether you agree it should or not- it does). It really is just a case of common courtesy.

And it causes me and millions of other women, psychological distress, when trans women decide they have the right to enter women only spaces, be part of women only sports teams exec etc etc and decide they will enter women only prisons.

Original poster
ATeardropExplodes · 28/12/2017 21:34

He's not female and neither does he identify as female

What about rapists who do then, if IH isn't to your liking to discuss the effects of the GRA proposals?

OP posts:
LizzieSiddal · 28/12/2017 21:37

I really hope Ian Huntley does try to change gender.

The story will explode in the media and the general public will finally be made aware of what is actually going on re Gender identification.

JAPAB · 28/12/2017 21:44

It doesn't matter many times he repeatedly tells people he wants to be called 'she'
He murdered two innocent little girls.
That gives us the right to call him what we want.

In the normal scheme of things it wouldn't become OK to be homophobic to a gay person, or racist to a black person, no matter what awful crimes they had committed. I'm saying sexist or misogynitic things to a female serious crime offender would get frowned upon by some.

Maryz · 28/12/2017 21:49

wherethevioletsgrow ^"Does LM have a GRC? If not, then no, Lily Madigan is not a woman under current law." Can someone explain to me how the Labour Party can have LM as a women's officer, in a position only open to women, when not legally a woman?

It seems to me that changing your name (and not even doing that legally, just doing it in day to day life) is enough for political parties and mainstream media (and google) to accept that some sort of transition has taken place. In which case IH is also a woman if he wants to be (and him wanting to be is the next obvious step, isn't it?)

wherethevioletsgrow · 28/12/2017 21:55

What about rapists who do then, if IH isn't to your liking to discuss the effects of the GRA proposals?

But rapists can get a GRC now under current law. Reform only removes the need for the doctor to certify you and I am sure that there are doctors who are quite willing to sign people off. I don't agree with the proposals as I think gender dysphoria is a medical condition, not just a feeling.

I think there should be exceptions to trans prisoners convicted of violent or sexual offences being placed in women's prisons. Instead they should be housed in a special facility if they cannot be kept safe in a men's prison. There should also be exceptions based on biological sex for certain things, including intimate medical examinations, intimate searches, rape and DV centres. This would strike a balance between trans people and women's safety.

However, we should not lose sight of the fact that the reforms only relate to getting a gender recognition certificate. But remember that many trans people do not bother getting one under the current law even though they could quite easily do so. In that sense, I don't think it will lead to a great change in the number of people identifying as trans.

We should also not lose sight of the fact that the vast majority of trans people are not in prison, violent, criminal, or sex offenders but are law abiding citizens who want to live in peace.

wherethevioletsgrow · 28/12/2017 21:57

Can someone explain to me how the Labour Party can have LM as a women's officer, in a position only open to women, when not legally a woman?

Agree that this is not right in any way shape or form. But I doubt anyone in the Labour Party will be brave enough to stand up to it.

Original poster
ATeardropExplodes · 28/12/2017 21:57

In the normal scheme of things it wouldn't become OK to be homophobic to a gay person, or racist to a black person, no matter what awful crimes they had committed. I'm saying sexist or misogynitic things to a female serious crime offender would get frowned upon by some

Gay people are gay though, and black people are black. People who say they are not the sex that they are, are taking the piss, attention seeking, have another agenda or have mental health issues. Much like people with annorexia think they are fat when they aren't. We don't all nod and agree that they are fat and help them to starve themselves to death, we make sure that they are offered mental health services to get better.

OP posts:
wherethevioletsgrow · 28/12/2017 22:00

People who say they are not the sex that they are, are taking the piss, attention seeking, have another agenda or have mental health issues. Much like people with annorexia think they are fat when they aren't. We don't all nod and agree that they are fat and help them to starve themselves to death, we make sure that they are offered mental health services to get better

But the agreed psychiatric treatment is to allow people with gender dysphoria to live as their preferred gender though. And remember that it was not so long ago that many believed that being gay was a perversion or a disease that could be cured. It seems obvious now that it is not, but during a significant part of the last century it was wholly uncontroversial to say that being gay was an illness, attention seeking or a lifestyle choice.

Original poster
ATeardropExplodes · 28/12/2017 22:08

*But the agreed psychiatric treatment8

agreed by who?

OP posts:
wherethevioletsgrow · 28/12/2017 22:17

agreed by who?

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

Treatment for adults includes hormone treatment and allowing the individual to live as their preferred gender if that is what they wish. I presume that the fact that the NHS funds it means there is a general consensus among medical professionals that that is the appropriate treatment in some (not all) cases.

bambambini · 28/12/2017 22:30

What if these doctors haven’t got it all worked out though. Didn’t Women/girls who were openly sexual/not chaste or modest used to be institutionalised? I think many of the professionals are winging it.

Original poster
ATeardropExplodes · 28/12/2017 22:33

I presume that the fact

These same doctors that are assigning people the wrong gender at birth [by nature of their genitals]? What makes them right this time round?

OP posts:
Sweetpea55 · 28/12/2017 22:36

He most defiantly isn't a woman because many years ago he went out with one of my daughters friends

Original poster
ATeardropExplodes · 28/12/2017 22:39

He most defiantly isn't a woman because many years ago he went out with one of my daughters friends

Sorry to hear that. But also, these days straight men are calling themselves transwomen lesbians and saying that 'some' women have penises.

OP posts:
wherethevioletsgrow · 28/12/2017 22:43

What if these doctors haven’t got it all worked out though.

I guess that is a risk we take. I still think a psychiatrist is likely to know better about treatment than the average non medically trained person though. Most doctors would probably object to the statement that trans people are all "taking the piss, attention seeking, have another agenda". I would agree that they have mental health issues but it seems that for many of them, what helps them is being able to live as their preferred gender and being accepted that way by the rest of society.

PencilsInSpace · 28/12/2017 22:45

wherethevioletsgrow - Reform only removes the need for the doctor to certify you and I am sure that there are doctors who are quite willing to sign people off.

Not in prisons. Nobody has access to the internet doctors in prison. Instead, any prisoner seeking to legally change gender during their sentence is currently subject to a proper 2 year process overseen by prison doctors who are no fools.

Under the new proposals any prisoner will be able to declare themselves to be legally the opposite sex and there is fuck all the prison service could do to stop them. Once a prisoner has a GRC they must be housed in the estate of their declared gender. No room for discretion.

However, we should not lose sight of the fact that the reforms only relate to getting a gender recognition certificate. But remember that many trans people do not bother getting one under the current law even though they could quite easily do so. In that sense, I don't think it will lead to a great change in the number of people identifying as trans.

Of course most trans people don't bother with a GRC as it is largely obsolete in its current form. Change the process to self-ID and it instantly becomes extremely useful to men who could not get a GRC under the current regime, e.g. Lian Huntley and similar abusive chancers.

Why do you think abusive men would not take advantage of the opportunity to sign a piece of paper and get transferred to a prison full of women?

TheOtherGirl · 28/12/2017 22:59

It is all such a load of pontificating guff.

He has a penis, ergo he is a man. End of.

The people tying themselves in knots desperately pandering to, and enabling this nonsense just want to affiliate themselves to the latest cause.

They're not especially fussed what the cause is. Could be fox hunting. Could be transgenderillywillynillysilly-ness.

Could be well, anything really. Anything so long as they get to bore others shitless whilst occupying some sort of perceived moral highground.

Ian Huntley doesn't get to be a woman. Hopefully he gets to be persecuted and threatened on a daily basis.

wherethevioletsgrow · 28/12/2017 23:21

Once a prisoner has a GRC they must be housed in the estate of their declared gender. No room for discretion

No, this is untrue. There IS discretion. I know that there are examples of where violent offenders have been put in female prisons but it is NOT true that prisoners have an automatic right to move to a female prison. It will still be dealt with on a case by case basis as it currently is. Currently prison services will only entertain a move if someone has a GRC and yes the new law will lead to it being easier to acquire one but it is not true that the new law will leave no discretion for the prison service if e.g. a serial rapist suddenly asks to move to a women's prison.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 28/12/2017 23:56

It causes psychological distress to a trans woman to be referred to as 'he' (whether you agree it should or not- it does). It really is just a case of common courtesy

It causes me psychological distress to be called any manner of names such as 'luv', etc, as well as to be ignored or spoken over in meetings or for people to assume that I'm a housewife/don't have a career (they only ask my DP what he does) or to assume I'm Mrs Hislastname. It causes me distress to see women's bodies pirnified and to struggle to find clothes that fit my real women's body. It upsets me that I can't walk alone at night without being hyper vigilant. All the above cause distress. But as a woman born woman I'm told it's normal, I'm overreacting, to suck it up or it's about men's rights or free speech.

bambambini · 29/12/2017 00:40

Currently prison services will only entertain a move if someone has a GRC

What about Tara Hudson? Violent pre op male with no GRC - moved to a women’s prison after a very public petition.

Nomoresugar · 29/12/2017 00:57

We can all see what trick he's trying to pull.

I hope he doesn't get his wish to move to a (biological) women's prison.

TSSDNCOP · 29/12/2017 01:05

The remorseless child murdered Huntley is barely human let alone a gender specific human.

His publicity oxygen should be terminated.

Every second of every day of his life should be an unmitigated misery with no peace.

JAPAB · 29/12/2017 05:57

ATeardropExplodes People who say they are not the sex that they are, are taking the piss, attention seeking, have another agenda or have mental health issues.

The poster I was replying to said that because he is a murderer this gives us the right to call him what we want. It was that argument I was addressing. If you believe the above about all trans people and think this justifies misgenderings etc, then that is a different justification.

Much like people with annorexia think they are fat when they aren't. We don't all nod and agree that they are fat and help them to starve themselves to death

Not this again. The dispute with anorexics is over whether their body is physically what they believe it to be. They attach the same physical meaning to the word fat as the rest of us, but are incorrect in thinking that this meaning applies to them. This can even be objectively tested.

The trans person does not erroneously believe that their physical body is different than what it is. By all means disbelieve in the notion that someone can be 'in the wrong body', or dispute their ideological beliefs that certain words ought to be redefined to include individuals with their physical bodies, but there are no objective tests here to prove anyone wrong. Unlike in the anorexic case. It is a qualitatively different type of situation.

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