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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that Ian Huntley is most definitely not a woman?

525 replies

ATeardropExplodes · 28/12/2017 17:09

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/15/call-lian-child-killer-ian-huntley-has-told-inmates-call-feminine/

If anyone has any evidence to convince me otherwise please do enlighten me, thanks in advance.

OP posts:
SimonBridges · 01/01/2018 16:30

JAPAB. I will not engage with you any further until you answer the question:

What is the definition of woman that includes transwoman and doesn't include men.

ATeardropExplodes · 01/01/2018 16:36

Aaaaaaaargh.. he gaslit me, he did, he gaslit me

Do you manage to ever plough through the dirge? Well done!

@JAPAB What is the definition of woman that includes transwoman and doesn't include men. Thanks in advance again...

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 01/01/2018 16:45

I am currently trying to find the random word generator he uses... I had a student who used to use one (JAPAB, you're not Josh, are you?). It made for some great class room conversations, but was always a distraction, subtraction, required microinstruction, caused venoconstriction, dissatisfaction and introspection in all.

Ereshkigal · 01/01/2018 17:50

Except her notion of what biological sex is has seemingly been created by conflating the factors that provide the evidence people use to infer someone;s sex, with the factors that define it?

"Her" Grin

Maryz · 01/01/2018 18:20

I missed that post. I am going to attempt a discussion

JAPAB: "I'd be interested to hear an argument for why biological sex does not exist that does not boil down to 'because things like having a penis or ovaries determine sex, and since these can be changed or removed, sex is not a fixed reality'.

There isn't an argument for why biological sex does not exist, because sex is determined by things like chromosomes, and since they cannot be changed, sex is a fixed reality.

[helpful]

SimonBridges · 01/01/2018 18:23

I'd be interested to hear an argument for why biological sex does not exist that does not boil down to 'because things like having a penis or ovaries determine sex, and since these can be changed or removed, sex is not a fixed reality

A woman why has had a double mastectomy and a full hysterectomy is still a woman because SHE WAS BORN WITH A VAGINA AND HAS the chromosomes to prove it.

SmileEachDay · 01/01/2018 21:01

Hey. I’ve got an idea.

Japab
This Is how I know I’m a woman: give it a read.

Then for pity’s sake have a go at your own definition. Please?

SimonBridges · 01/01/2018 21:14

That links to no results.

SmileEachDay · 01/01/2018 21:20

Oh - don’t why, thanks @SimonBridges: here’s the text instead..from an article published by FairPlay to Women:

^This bucks the trend of my usual single issue fact based articles, I'll get back to that because facts are powerful, especially in the context of the current insanity. But you know what? I don't feel like politing. I don't feel like pleasing and thanking. I don't feel like considering how I might engage people on the edges of the argument.

I just feel angry. So, so angry.

It's prompted by the attacks by TAs on a woman in London, prior to a debate about the Gender ID bill. That has been covered in detail and with by passion by many, including the wonderful @VictoriaPeckham and @GenderTrender and Meghan Murphy.

The rage I feel about women being silenced for refusing to accept that cocks are part of the female anatomy has made me look at myself. How do I know I'm a woman?

I'm not having an existential crisis, I mean it literally. How do I know? Because I don't 'identify' as a woman...I just am one.

There have been clues, along the way though.

I started my period during an episode of Bergerac. My mum was at work and my dad was pissed. The rust brown womb scrapings in my knickers weren't the gush of righteous ruby I'd been primed to expect by whisperings at school. The mattress sized pad seemed like overkill, to be honest...

Transactivists: I knew I was a woman then.

When I was about 13, we had some work done on our roof. There ever a gang of builders swarming the house like sweaty, swearing, singlet wearing wasps. They left copies of The Sun in the kitchen, with Page 3 and pages of sexlines. As a stroppy, budding feminist I would bin any copy I found. One day, as I was leaving the house, one of them wolf whistled at my disappearing, stone washed denim clad arse. Then he said : "I'd do you if you weren't jail bait".

Transactivists: I knew I was a woman then.

One summer, I got a job in a bar. A bar in a shabby, down at heel seaside town. The 'interview' was with a sleazy man in a shit suit with his shirt open to the naval. He said I'd be a bar maid. And hostess. My job, essentially was to flirt with men to get them to spend more money. I was really good at it. Then one evening I was dancing with one of the regulars and he got a bit gropey. I told him to back off. He called me frigid. Then, in a fine piece of male logic, he called me whore and complained to the manager. I got the sack.

Transactivists: I knew I was a woman then.

I can't list all the times I've been touched, uninvited in a sexual way. All the times men have run their hands across my arse, stroked my arms, touched my face, for crying out loud. Pretty much, if it's a body part above the knee, it's been fondled by a man who has not asked if it's ok first. I'll add in all the uninvited comments from complete strangers here too. From 'cheer up love' to 'wanna give me a blowjob'. All men. And all felt they were entitled to do this because I'm a woman.

The feeling of my rapist's semen running down my inner thigh as I ran, naked, into his bathroom? Knew I was a woman. The terror when I was pinned against a wall by my "boyfriend"? Knew I was a woman.

When I was pregnant, I vomited for the whole time. The hormones my female body produced to keep my baby safe and attached to my magical placenta made me vomit violently. I carried a water bottle in my car so I could seamlessly throw up mid gear change. I grew my child, in the same womb that had disturbed my Bergerac viewing with its rusty flakes. I grew a child. Quite how, given my diet of very little followed by not much, I don't know. Kneeling over the toilet, dry heaving but bizarrely comforted by the smell of bleach, I have never felt more like a woman.

Giving birth, nearly in the hospital foyer? Knew I was a woman. Meeting my waxy, bloody, dark eyed baby as he snuffled for my nipple? Knew I was a woman. Managing my lactating, massive, painful leaky breasts? All woman.

Having my first post birth shit, sobbing at the blood and shit covered porcelain? Yep. Knew I was a woman.

I have never bought an item of clothing and felt like a woman. I have had short hair, long hair and in between hair, made no difference to my feelings of womanness. I feel like a woman with sore feet in high heels and a woman who can run in converse. I have never applied false eye lashes or lipstick, but my BFF assures me that red lipstick or not, she's a woman.^

Ereshkigal · 01/01/2018 22:15

I feel her white hot anger and I am with her. Brilliant.

SimonBridges · 01/01/2018 23:50

That is fucking brilliant.

JAPAB · 02/01/2018 08:13

SmileEachDay sorry but I am not sure why you are addressing that article to me? The writer describes having some of the bodily experiences that people with an XX chromosome often have.And it describes the way people with that chromosome can be mis-treated by others. So this lets someone know that they have a particular type of body with certain functions, and/or that they live in a society where people with that type of body may be treated in bad ways. Well, no dispute here that such things let someone know such things.

Maryz Are we agreeing it's a fact that water is a substance that consists of one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms? Is that a fact? Can we rely on the dictionary here?

Yes it is a fact that that label has that meaning. A social/institutional fact. It will only remain a "fact" for as long as a sufficient consensus of humans agree that it does. Can't imagine such a tussle happening over water though, as has happened over men/women/marriage etc in recent times.

Scabbersley · 02/01/2018 08:18

But why wouldn't they agree that's what the label means? Why would there be a differing consensus? Unless the molecules involved changed? Surely if the molecular structure of water physically changed then we'd have a different name for it.

ATeardropExplodes · 02/01/2018 08:23

I am not sure why you are addressing that article to me?

@JAPAB What is the definition of woman that includes transwoman and doesn't include men. Thanks in advance again...

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/01/2018 09:16

I am not sure why you are addressing that article to me?

Go on... surprise yourself. What is your definition of woman...?

Ereshkigal · 02/01/2018 11:00

He's never going to define "woman" in a non circular way, because then he'd actually be challenged on it. He likes to dance around getting pleasure from making women frustrated and angry.

SimonBridges · 02/01/2018 11:02

The writer describes having some of the bodily experiences that people with an XX chromosome often have.

It’s ok girls. Rape is simply a bodily experience.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/01/2018 11:09

He likes to dance around getting pleasure from making women frustrated and angry. Just as well we have all made it clear we are just toying with him, amusing ourselves to tide us over until something better comes along!

But you do have to wonder what makes some people act like that. What's missing that they need to be such irritating tics?

Ereshkigal · 02/01/2018 12:58

The writer describes having some of the bodily experiences that people with an XX chromosome often have.

Hmmm. What could possibly be the reason that these bodily experiences "often" affect people with XX chromosomes?

Ereshkigal · 02/01/2018 12:59

Just as well we have all made it clear we are just toying with him, amusing ourselves to tide us over until something better comes along!

He doesn't believe that though, or he wouldn't do it.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/01/2018 13:04

Of course he doesn't! Given his posting history why would anyone think he is capable of proper reflection?

Doesn't mean we have to see him as he sees himself! Just because he thinks he is being witty and clever doesn't mean we can't enjoy ourselves taking the mickey! He isn't bad value, to be honest!

Maryz · 02/01/2018 13:25

So ^"It will only remain a "fact" for as long as a sufficient consensus of humans agree that it does." What is a sufficient consensus? 90% of the population, perhaps?

A very small minority think that "woman" no longer means "adult human female". That's not a sufficient consensus to change it,. surely, no matter how vocal they are.

I used to have conversations like this with my toddlers.

ThymeLord · 02/01/2018 13:33

But you do have to wonder what makes some people act like that. What's missing that they need to be such irritating tics?

He likes the attention of women. In the same way a child might 'play up' for attention. He likely can't get it in RL so does it here, using his online thesaurus.

JAPAB · 02/01/2018 15:01

SimonBridges It’s ok girls. Rape is simply a bodily experience.

You must have stopped reading immediately after the part you quoted. Reading the next sentence might have prevented this incorrect (and rather odd) inference.

Maryz So "It will only remain a "fact" for as long as a sufficient consensus of humans agree that it does." What is a sufficient consensus? 90% of the population, perhaps?^

[Shrugs shoulders] we could get into what percentage of people need to agree that marriage is the union of any two people, before it "stops" meaning "one man one woman" and "starts" meaning that. The people who believe one thing can go on believing it regardless of what percentage they are in, the people on the other side can do the same. Either side are free to lobby the law to make the law's position one thing or another.

I don't think people who believe they are right worry about such things do they. A lot of people did not believe rape existed within marriage and for a long time after the law change. Bet the campaigners in earlier years who believed it does, and wanted the legal definition changed tp ref;ect this, gave a monkeys about the percentages.

None of this makes any difference to the point that you are on a sticky wicket if you conflate social/institutional facts with objective facts and act as if your opposition are going against objective facts when they are not.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/01/2018 15:14

Mmm! Law? Social/Institutional facts?

Objective fact? What? You mean like woman = adult female?

You really are arguing both sides against the middle aren't you Grin