How batshit do I need to go?

[anotherBadAvatar]

xmas Day at DM’s house yesterday- me, DH, DD1(3yrs) and DD2(6m).

She has a dog I’m not overly fond of. It’s neurotic, highly strung and not fabulously behaved. We have a dog too, for the record, so I’m not anti-dogs at all.

DD1 got v close to DM’s dog face yesterday, saying “hellooo doggy”, but not touching her, and the dog bit her lip. Not terribly, but there was no warning, and poor DD was understandably hysterical afterwards. I had just told DD1 to leave the dog alone when it happened.

This was not the first time DM’s dog has nipped DD1. The last time, she was about 18m old, when she grabbed the dog’s back to steady herself.

DD1 is used to dogs, and I know I should have kept her away from the dog, especially knowing it’s history, but it all happened so quickly. DM didn’t even offer an apology.

We’re back at home now, would I be U to tell her the children are never to be around her dog again?

Loving the comments about the MIL. I don't suppose she vent has a dog but if there is someone to blame it had better be a MIL even if she has absolutely nothing to do with it!

I’m surprised at the number of people who think this is completely and entirely OP’s fault.

Yes, OP should of course have been supervising her DD more closely, or insisting on the dog being kept away, especially as the dog’s bitten her DD before.

But equally - if a dog owner has a dog that is “neurotic, highly strung and not fabulously behaved”, and that has previously bitten a child - presumably OPs mum is aware of all this - surely a responsible dog owner would also be taking steps to minimise the chances of the dog biting again? Like putting the dog in another room, the garden or behind a stair gate while the small child is around? Or closely supervising the dog, so that if it starts looking too stressed, it can be removed from the situation before it snaps? Not just for the sake of the child who may get bitten, but also to make the child’s visit less stressful for the dog?

Both sides have screwed up here.

@BertrandRussell totally agree. If DM wants her grandchildren then she has a responsibility to provide a safe environment for them. Snappy dogs should be separated from small children and having them around isn't very welcoming in my opinion. The dog doesn't know any better, neither does the toddler. DM should keep dog in another room but if she doesn't care enough about her GCs to do that then OP shouldn't visit her home anymore.

I thought only cat people were crazy until I joined MN.

But, no, it's some dog people as well. A bit sad, really.

Both effed up imo.

It was the OP's responsibility to keep her child safe and she didn't.

It was the owner's responsibility to ensure the dog wasn't put into a difficult situation and she didn't.

I have three dogs. I, personally, would have kept a nippy dog in a separate room to a child unless being actively supervised (active to me means watching for any signs of unease and ensuring the child keeps a safe distance). In all honesty, I don't do that because of concern for the child but out of concern for the dogs. It's my job to make sure they never feel forced to do something that could get them into trouble and so I am extremely cautious around young and old people.

Plenty of dog owners think they responsibility is all on parents to keep children safe from dogs, but I am also continually shocked at how some parents allow their children to behave towards dogs. Only last week I was walking a 5 month old puppy when 4 children ran up, surrounded him and started to pet him while he crouched in the centre. I had to tell them all the back away and pet one at a time but the parents were just laughing at how cute he looked because he was scared of the children (literally, they were saying "aw he's so scared, isn't that cute"). All children were old enough to be told to behave.

Not so long ago I was walking a little terrier mix and a young girl asked if she could pet him. When I said yes she grabbed him round the middle and tried to pick him up like a rag doll. Again, the parent just said "oh, he might not like that" and it was up to my to be more directive and tell her "stop. put him down NOW".

I (and they) am lucky my dogs didn't react in these scenarios but many could have and would have.

It’s a hard one but your daughter is too young to be around a dog like that and it’s your responsibility to keep her away from it, especially since the dogs behaviour is no surprise. YABU if you blame anyone else, good idea to decide not to let the kids near the dog again.

the dog is Dangerous...is should not be near anybody

i put my dog to sleep for this reasom

I have two dogs neither have ever bitten but I have a room where they can go when we have extra guests or other dogs or situations that might over excite or worry them . If my dog bit my grandchild they would never be allowed in the same room . I would be mortified . I love my dogs but I love my grandchildren more .

the dog is -Dangerous...is should not be near anybody- behaving like a dog... it needs help to make sure it doesn't hurt itself, another dog or a person

ftfy

You can not keep toddlers away from dogs? They move about ? The dog may approach the child ? Yes do your best to teach them not to get close to a dogs face but if a dog has bitten he dog should be in a different room .

My own parents would have kept the dog away from my toddler if they knew the dog had bitten before, e.g. in another room. Why hadn't that happened?

I had a cousin who had her face mauled by a rottie when she was a toddler. She was sitting on the floor with a packet of quavers or something like that, and the dog just went for her. Lo and behold, the dog had bitten a child before! You don't let children around dogs who bite.

Safety gates all the way even if you have to buy them. My baby gates were there to protect my rescued very grumpy dog from being annoyed by my toddler! We still have 2 dogs and an 11 year old and her and her friends who nearly all have dogs, are not left unsupervised even thought my dogs bark are as soft as anything. KIDS and DOGS should never be left unattended

I'm very "pro dog." However, your DM's dog is not safe around small children, and your DM should keep it locked up (in a kennel) whenever you are over.

Or if she isn't willing to do that, you should only see your mother other places.

It really isn't possible to keep eyes on multiple small children every single second while visiting with relatives, eating, and so on. Since your mom isn't 100% on board with keeping the dog away from the children, you don't stand a chance.

Your youngest is 6 months old, and perhaps you'll have another child. By the time all your children are old enough to completely understand and be 100% responsible for staying out of the dog's space, that dog will most likely be dead.

(My own dog isn't nippy at all, has never shown any aggression, and has had special training to not react to mild mistreatment. None the less, if someone were over here with a small child, I would have eyes 100% on the dog and child, and then put the dog into her kennel when I couldn't have my eyes on the dog and child. It wouldn't be fair to either the dog or the child to allow anything to go wrong. It's not worth it.).

*But equally - if a dog owner has a dog that is “neurotic, highly strung and not fabulously behaved”, and that has previously bitten a child - presumably OPs mum is aware of all this - surely a responsible dog owner would also be taking steps to minimise the chances of the dog biting again? Like putting the dog in another room, the garden or behind a stair gate while the small child is around? Or closely supervising the dog, so that if it starts looking too stressed, it can be removed from the situation before it snaps? Not just for the sake of the child who may get bitten, but also to make the child’s visit less stressful for the dog?

Both sides have screwed up here.*

Agree with this.

Both sides screwed up.

My mil had a dog...my baby was crawling around and went for him. Luckily dh was close and pushed ds out of the way.mil stuck up for the dog and how ds shouldn't have been near him (he wasn't touching the dog or particularly close to be a threat)and she never put dog in another room when we visited after. She then complained I was too clingy when I would hover over him whenever we visited and would never let him near the dog.

In op story... Mil knows dog isn't overly friendly so should have put it out of the room. Op shouldn't have let her dd near the dog. Dd should be taught not to get too close.

Tough one because the dog shouldn't be allowed to behave that way around kids but also kids do stuff to dogs they won't like!

Im a firm believer that children and dogs are an unknown science and you can't predict either and so great caution is needed on both sides . I have a 2 year old dd and how dogs, I always say that no matter how confident I am
That things will never turn sour I can never be 100% sure how the dogs will react to
Something the kid does and vice versa so always exercise caution
I don't think you can be gross at your mum or the dog or the child but just make sure next time you go round you either watch like a hawk or you make an effort to not let them get that close to each other. I don't think these things are anyone's fault just an unpredictable situation that needs watching

I also find it hilarious that many people don't then no to make their house safe for visiting toddlers, because it's entirely the responsibility of the parents. When I visit my parents, I often go there for a bit of a break, e.g. they watch my toddler too and take on some of the responsibility. They push their breakables back etc. All it takes it one second where your eyes aren't on them and something happens. We're not all perfect, I highly doubt any of you never have your eyes wander from your toddler for a second. But then, I suppose it depends on how much those you are visiting care. For example, I probably wouldn't feel happy about DD staying with MIL because she has a huge open cabinet full of those horse statue decorations... All it would take is for MIL to be seeing to her son for a minute and the whole thing could come crashing down. It's highly enticing for a toddler.

find it extraordinary -and worrying- that people think that dog owners are not responsible ultimately for their dogs’ actions. Yes, in an ideal world, people would know how to behave round dogs and in an ideal world no parent would ever screw up. But in the real world they don’t -and they do. So my dog-my responsibility.

^this!!

The dog was the agressor. The child did not taunt it, hurt it etc. Which means that the dog’s behaviour is the owner’s responsibility.

If the child had been the agressor? Yes, in that case the child’s behaviour would have been the parents’ responsibility.

I would however say that letting your DD near that dog was extremely unreasonable. So no, OP, I wouldn’t let your DDs near that dog. Actually, I myself wouldn’t want to be near that dog.

Dogs are awesome pets imo. But I refuse to be near a known biter and there’s no way I’d allow DDs (similar age as yours, btw) to be near one.

Seriously. Why did you -their mother- and their own grandmother let them near that dog / the dog near them?

Everyone is responsible for what and whom they are responsible for. The dog owner for the dog and the parents for the child. That should lead to a lovely fail-safe state for the child and dog. Small children should be extremely closely supervised around dogs and vice-versa. They can hurt or even kill each other.

In this case no one was doing their job.

In case the OP is still here somewhere; we taught DD to ask the owner THEN ask the dog. If the owner says she can pet, she THEN observes the dog's behaviour for nerves, aggression or fear. Better not to pet if you are in any doubt.

Btw, dogs that bite (unless someone is trying to hurt them etc) shouldn’t be near people. Let alone children.

Yes, I’m saying that as a dog lover.

I really do think that this reveals quite a lot about their GM’s priorities. Seeing as their grandmother should know that her dog is nippy and apparently likes to bite children.... I really would expect her to keep the dog away. The fact that she didn’t think of this.

And I’m also surprised that you didn’t insist on it. Time to put your foot down (imo).

The OP's mother should have shut the dog in another room full stop, in the chaos of Christmas you can't keep 100% attention on a toddler all the time especially when she has another baby to look after as well. You are all making it out as if she was just sat ignoring DD1, she could have been busy with DD2.
When I had my DD my DM had a dog that was as soft as anything with me, my DM and My DF, but I took her years to accept my DH (DO at the time), whenever we went down with my DD she would shut the dog in another room as we just couldn't trust her not to bite my DD.
That is what should have been done in this case and if I were you OP I would tell your DM that if she won't shut the dog in another room when the kids are there, you won't be taking them.

Not a dog owner. Any dog who bites through a bit of eye contact should be outside when children come to visit. My daughter has been chased by a dog. Stupid owner taking a dog by an open park! Not your fault op but you can't go bat shit until she refuses to keep dog away from gc.

Yes the owner was at fault too and should have had the dog away at least during initial excited greeting phase, but OP asked, and since OP is a dog owner she should know about children and dogs.

im sorry to be rude but you should have been more careful no matter how good or bad a dog is you should never trust a dog blindly i would suggest that you ask the dog is put in another room next time