What is actually reasonable?

[TribbleToilandTrouble]

So long and short of it is that I live in a terrace house and I have two small children. They are noisy, and up early. There are also SEN issues with at least one.

So about ten minutes ago, they were having a particulary noisy moment downstairs and one of the neighbours thumped on the bedroom wall so hard the wall vibrated.

The neighbours have complained before, I'm not insensible of the noise my household can generate, we have taken steps to reduce noise (we now take the kids downstairs as soon as they wake up, they have sanctions for being too noisy upstairs etc).

But I'm not at a point of how much noise is actually reasonable? It's 7am on a Sunday morning, am I suppose to stop the kids playing downstairs now?

This is really upsetting, I'd just about calmed down from the last complaint.

Oh pet - don't have a go at me. I was trying to assist you by giving some handy hints and for you to see it from your neighbour's point of view. I do think you are inflicting your troubles on others - remember your troubles are not theirs however much you try to make it so,

I think I'm more upset by the thumping to be honest, he knows us as neighbours and he knows we are approachable.

Get up out of a warm bed, get dressed, comb your hair, grab a coat, go outside, knock on your neighbour's door and ask them to keep their kids quiet at 7am on a Sunday morning?

Or roll over and thump on the wall, in the hope the noise will calm down.

Come on now OP. Which would you choose?

How bizarre to give more empathy and understanding to a hypothetical health issue than an actual one

What a bizarre thing to take. I have sympathy for BOTH the OP and the neighbour. And the fact is they have to maintain some sort of civility.

And yes, I think 7am is too early for kids to be making noise.

The OP herself wasn't feeling all that understanding towards her neighbour, because she herself was woken up by him banging on the wall. So that would be why she won't have sounded reasonable about his annoyance at that moment.

Notice that she wasn't woken up by the DCs playing downstairs, so they can't have been exceptionally noisy.

It's impossible for us to know.

Too early or not doesn't alter the fact that sometimes kids make noise. Babies cry, toddlers scream and sometimes older children with SN make noise that can't be controlled and despite some of the offensive posts on here it isn't because the parents can't be bothered or are using SN as an 'excuse.' The neighbour is welcome to wear ear plugs.

Noise nuisance definition:

What sort of noise can't be investigated?
Prior to making a complaint it is important to note that whilst officers will try their best to help, there are certain domestic noises which will not amount to a statutory nuisance and as such can’t be investigated. The reason for this is because case law states that noise from the ordinary and reasonable use of residential premises can’t be considered as a statutory nuisance. These generally include lifestyle noises such as:

Footfalls (especially between flats)
Dropping objects and moving furniture
Lights being switched on and off
General talking coming from both the house or the garden
Shouting unless it is happening frequently and for prolonged periods
Slamming of doors or cupboards
Flushing of toilets
Babies crying
Children playing

So I stand by my comment that complaining about people just living in proximity to you is shitty. It may be rubbish that the neighbour can hear it all, but that's the fault of the construction of the building and not the OP.

The neighbour is welcome to wear ear plugs.

People keep saying this.

I have worn earplugs every single night for 10+ years. They muffle sound, but they definitely don’t stop me from being woken up by loud / sharp noises like children shouting through a thin wall.

They need to bring their toys downstairs to play until at least 9am.

Napqueen, RTFT! They are downstairs, with the OP's DH supervising them. The OP was upstairs sleeping.

I do see it from neighbours point of view, in fact I've never said we weren't being unreasonable in terms of noise bothering him. I was asking WHAT was reasonable in terms of time and my children playing.

We are very 'on them' in terms of discipline and keeping control of them, we bloody have to. I'm not a lazy parent.

As for that other poster on the road called 'M', eeek that's not us, we don't have clarinets.

He doesn't have any health issues as far as I'm aware.

I'm also not using their SEN as an excuse, more stating that it adds dimension to our situation. They're not normal kids and sometimes the strategies that work with NT children don't work with mine. I need alternative strategies, not the ones that work with children who are NT.

I think kids should be occupied with quiet games until about 9am.

So drawing & colouring, jigsaw puzzles, Lego etc. or breakfast in front of the tv (on low volume)

Explain to them about not disturbing the neighbours, it's never to young to learn to be considerate.

We have an end terrace but never hear my neighbours (a family). Either the sound proofing is incredible or they are very quiet people.

I would swap the word Sen for disabled. There’s a real shortage of empathy on Mumsnet for Sen. Plus that technically covers everything from dyslexia to autism.

Children with disabilities are difficult to parent. Especially those your children have. You can’t batter impulse control and NT understanding into children by being firm.

I don’t think 7am on a Sunday is early personally.

But I don’t think you’re going to find a solution with the housing you’re in.

I missed a page on the thread out but have you made an application for social housing? Medical need usually gets you in a middle banding although I know personally it’s not an easy process.

No no no wednesdayswench

No not Lego! My dc's make an inordinate amount of noise tipping Lego out of the box, and me shouting and swearing at 6am after standing on it would definitely wake the neighbours!

I work nights too op, it's bloody hard to get decent enough sleep without the neighbours banging.

I'd ask them round for a cuppa and a chat, see what they want and what you can reasonably manage.

Do they have dc?

Do they realise your dc have sen? They may be more understanding if they are aware.

Try to become friendly and they may be less pissed off by the noise.

My son is autistic and has a sleep disorder which means he often wakes up at odd times of the night. As of 5-6am he is allowed to have his tablet on in his room or in my bed next to me and as long as the volume is on fairly low and he doesn’t screech (he does this a lot and trying to encourage him to use his words instead) I leave him to it.

Could you put the tv/ tablet on for them or a movie or something if they’d sit fairly quietly and watch it? I think sometimes people who are already irritated by noise and stuff become more sensitive. Like they’re waiting to be annoyed by it again.

Not fair on your neighbours at all.

just wish he'd spoken to us prior to this point (if it was bothering him) rather than bang the wall as he did

To be fair, you said he had already spoken with you about it? And he's not likely to get out of bed, get dressed and come round at 7am is he? The whole point is he was trying (reasonably) to sleep so he just banged on the wall as a way of telling you it was bothering him.

Personally it wouldn't bother me, we're heavy sleepers and early risers. But I can understand why it would bother some people.

If dc can't keep quiet at that time then could the solution be taking them out? Even if it's dark/cold/wet, they're old enough to enjoy going for an early morning walk etc.

I think those suggesting the neighbours can't legally do anything and it's tough aren't seeing the full picture. If they decide to get their own back then op is far more vulnerable to any noise they want to make. Far better to find a compromise.

@SweetEnough ahhh yes, the noisy Lego box tipping, bad idea....silly me

YANBU, OP. What are you supposed to do, gag them? You're trying your best. They're just going to have to deal with it.

I think if you live in close proximity to other humans than it falls on both parties to protect from disturbing each other and being disturbed. You sound like you are trying control your children already, that’s a start, maybe try Boise proofing your home.
I also think your neighbours should noise proof their home, wear earplugs etc to ensure they aren’t disturbed.

I am gobsmacked and frankly depressed at the number of posters who think that children being noisy to the point of being a nuisance is normal behaviour. It is no surprise that teachers are becoming overwhelmed and stressed when they end up with a class full of noisy children who don't know any different because their parents think it is acceptable.

Yes, SOME children with SEN will find it more difficult to learn not to be nosy. For one, SEN doesn't equal noisy, and for two, even children with learning difficulties can be helped with not being constantly nosy.

We have a neighbour with such children and it made our life hell. Their parents would send them in the garden as soon as it wasn't freezing cold or purring down with rain because even they had enough of the noise. Our garden unfortunately is small, and our windows/french doors are right next to it and the constant screeching, shouting, fighting drove my OH to experiencing anxiety symptoms so bad that at times, he had to leave the house as he couldn't cope any longer.

After 3 such summers, we were dreading the last one, but amazingly, it all stopped. We thought they had got rid of the children, thought maybe they were foster kids, but we found out in September from our other neighbour that people living in nearby flats had put a complain to the council and the council had indeed given them a warning.

It worked, so clearly the children WERE capable of being quiet, but it suited the parents not to deal with the issue and considering that it was normal behaviour.

All children should be tought at an early age that being loud is not acceptable except in special circumstances. Yes, kids will naturally be noisy, but like everything else, it is something they can learn. Living in a nosy environment is stressful even for them and will only contribute to their difficulties, so it is especially important that kids with extra energy are given opportunities to express it appropriately, through regular trips to parks, physical activities etc....

Don't expect other people to accept your nosy children just because you don't know/can't be bothered to manage it.

Kids tend to get up early and sometimes they make some noise. It's part of life, and if you live in a terrace you just have to suck these things up sometimes. Sounds like you're doing what you can to be considerate, OP.

7am on a Sunday morning?? I'd be livid - id be tempted to play some heavy metal nice and loud late at night too. Don't inflict your noisy kids on other people.

Thank god I live in a detached as I couldn't be doing with this shit.