What is actually reasonable?

[TribbleToilandTrouble]

So long and short of it is that I live in a terrace house and I have two small children. They are noisy, and up early. There are also SEN issues with at least one.

So about ten minutes ago, they were having a particulary noisy moment downstairs and one of the neighbours thumped on the bedroom wall so hard the wall vibrated.

The neighbours have complained before, I'm not insensible of the noise my household can generate, we have taken steps to reduce noise (we now take the kids downstairs as soon as they wake up, they have sanctions for being too noisy upstairs etc).

But I'm not at a point of how much noise is actually reasonable? It's 7am on a Sunday morning, am I suppose to stop the kids playing downstairs now?

This is really upsetting, I'd just about calmed down from the last complaint.

[Beerwench]

Well, ticket to the bandwagon anyone?!
No wonder OP hasn't been back! A few points I picked up on -

The OP wasn't having a lie in, she was in bed from night shift. Working. She is not lazy or a bad parent for needing sleep! Nights are hard, and the lack of understanding and assumption one is lazy for daring to need sleep is shocking. The OPs OH had charge of the children at this point, she was not languishing in bed while her children ran riot downstairs!

The OP stated either here or on the duplicate thread, that she can hear noise from the neighbours, every day household noise like them flushing the loo or shouting at their kids. Taking this on board, it would lead me to think that a)the soundproofing is terrible b)the fact that it's usually quieter on a Sunday morning with regards to traffic and outside noise, has made it stand out more and c) the neighbours may not realise that the walls are quite so thin, that their household noise also travels. They may genuinely not know and think the OPs children are being exceptionally noisy when in fact they aren't, it's 'normal' noise and it's experienced in both houses.

*OPs other half allowed the children to play a game that he knows could lead to noise - that should now be addressed and games like that not allowed until later.

*While SEN or disability may not be a carte Blanche to excuse anti social behavior, it does have a bearing. Yes, ime, some parents do 'use' it as an excuse for poor parenting. But a lot don't, and from the OP and updates, it seems the OP is aware of the noise her children can make and has already put strategies in place to reduce this.

MN can be a bloody cauldron at times! I don't understand all the frothing about this. I have always lived in terraced housing or flats and yes, some living noise is to be expected! You cannot expect to live in total silence! Children are learning, and it takes time to teach them what is suitable and what isn't. A child up until age 5/6 I would say wouldn't have a concept of days of the week by themselves, yes if prompted. They do not understand the concept of others until they are taught and that doesn't happen magically! From what I've read the OP is trying to teach her children those lessons.

[minipie]

Oh was the DH aware they would inevitably argue if playing with cars Elton? I must have missed that bit.

[longestlurkerever]

This is the kind of thread that makes me want to take a break from mumsnet. Like the admin said, it's about as far from supportive as is humanly possible. Just depressing.

[Lizzie48]

I was reacting against people laying into the OP for being asleep. If she didn't wake up before she obviously needed it. It also means that she wouldn't have known what the DCs were doing. It was her OH's responsibility to supervise them.

Normally MNers are very keen to tell OPs that their DH should take over so they can have a sleep. Then if the DCs are noisy, of course it's their fault for being asleep!!

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

minipie, I don't think anybody is expecting them to magically keep them quiet. Just not to allow them to play a game they are both perfectly aware ends in arguments at 7am.

[minipie]

I'd love to know these methods for keeping young children quiet and preventing all noise.

Yes sometimes you can predict something will be noisy and intervene. But other times the noise comes out of nowhere.

Those posters who say things like "any child over 3 can be expected to exercise self control" - how long since you had a 3 year old? I'd put the age where you can expect a child to ensure they stay quiet at more like 7 than 3 - and not in the case of certain kinds of SN.

[Thehogfather]

I'm the other side of the fence lizzie and think op needs to find another solution, but still hate the way the sn angle has brought the scum out from under their rocks as an opportunity to air their vile disabilist opinions.

[RestingGrinchFace]

Tovwhat extevt do you actually make an effort to keep them quiet? I appreciate that one of them has SN but even then they would have be to outright screaming/banging on the walls for your neighbour to hear it. I know that it's difficult when a cchild has a meltdown (if this is the cause of the noise then fair enough) but at other times I don't think that it unreasonable to expect children to be quiet. At age 3+ they can reasonably be expect to exercise self control consistently in this respect and children under theee are usually very easy to distract. It's not fair for your neighbour to have to put up with constant noise because you aren't doing enough to keep them quiet.

[Lizzie48]

Thank you for saying this, Flissmumsnet. I've been feeling really sorry for the OP. I find my adopted DDs (8 and 5, so similar ages to her children) exhausting, one of them with Attachment Disorder, and I don't work nights. So no wonder she needed her sleep! The judgmental comments were just not right.

[FlissMumsnet]

Thanks to everyone who's been in touch about this thread.

We've removed some posts that we felt broke our Talk Guidelines and we've noticed that many of the deletions were for disablist posts.

Do take a look at our This Is My Child Campaign especially the Myths about parenting children with special needs and consider the challenges many parents of children with disabilities face, day to day.

Mumsnet exists to make parent's lives easier and if there's one thing we could all do with, it's some understanding and moral support.

[MotherCupboard]

At least this thread shows up who the disablist wankers are. I don't have any direct experience of ASD or similar disabilities and yet i have no problem understanding that children with disabilities might present different challenges to NT children. Not all children with disabilities are the same so it's disappointing to see yet more posts saying op should just teach her children to be more considerate when nobody here apart from op are experts in her particular children.

A teenager playing loud music in the middle of the night is in no way comparable to a 4yo and 7yo with or without disabilities making some noise playing at 7am. What if one of them shouted out while doing Mumsnet Approved Colouring? That might still wake the neighbour. Op maybe you should just sedate your children to stop them being such an inconvenience to your poor neighbour.

[Lizzie48]

If the DCs are arguing over toy cars, I fail to see that it was because the OP wasn't supervising them. All he had to do was not let them play with the toy cars in the first place.

Usually posters are very keen to say that the dad should do his bit, yet this time it's all the mum's fault???

[Cantuccit]

Difference is we don't lay in our beds and scream at her. We get up and PARENT OUR CHILD!!!!!!!!

@YCAWS Wow, you're such a hero.

OP's DH is downstairs with the kids, and no one is screaming at the kids. I doubt your child is angelic.

Don't conflate your situation with OP's.

Some right scummy posts on this thread.

[Thehogfather]

mrspatel pray enlighten us, what about the op inspired you to share your disabilist opinions on this thread? Perhaps your unique knowledge of how all dc with additional needs can just learn to behave should be shared with professionals and experts because clearly you know things they don't.

[swingofthings]

And some people are assuming that SEN means ok to be disruptive. OP has written herself that they have sanctions for being noisy upstairs, so clearly that means they are capable of being discplined for being nosy, wouldn't think being downstairs prevents that.

Disciplining doesn't to mean punishing, being nasty, strict or horrible, it means teaching kids to reduce disruptive behaviour. What did OP's OH do when the kids started to be nosy?

[Eltonjohnssyrup]

sirzy exactly! And the OP has said that arguing over cars is pretty much standard and expected from her two. So that's really easy. Early in the morning cars are put away in a box and other activities suggested.

The OP can say they're trying to minimise noise until she's blue in the face. But by allowing games which are guaranteed to end with arguments to happen at that time in the morning they are patently not!

Ditto being in bed saying she needs the sleep to function and just assuming that her neighbour doesn't! The best thing for the OP to do would be to get up until 9am when noise is more acceptable then go back to bed at 9am. No saying 'Oh but I need to sleep'. So does your flipping neighbour!

It's just frustrating because the OP clearly thinks that as long as she says they're trying to minimise the noise they should them be allowed to carry on as they want. They're clearly not doing what they can to minimise the noise when they're allowing games which they know cause problems and one of them is asleep!

[Spikeyball]

I think you need to try to engage them in separate activities in the early morning as some of the noise seems to come from them bouncing off each other.

As a general comment there are some posters on here who don't have a clue. Severe disability doesn't exist in their world.

[stitchglitched]

There are some utter arseholes on this thread. It is possible to sympathise with the neighbour without making nasty sweeping judgements about children with SN and how they are parented.

[alittlehelp]

Ahhh that's where I've been going wrong. I'll stop my tantrum-inducing morning schedule forthwith.

[stitchglitched]

It isn't a question of whether it is ok or not that children with SN are noisy. Sometimes it is just a fact of life, regardless of strategies put in place to minimise. And the use of 'just' in 'just because they have a disability' is so fucking dismissive it's unreal.

[HuskyMcClusky]

Do any of you know about having SEN children?

What does that even mean? SEN covers a huge spectrum of conditions and behaviours.

It is ridiculous to suggest that there’s no way to prevent a child from making a racket before 7am on a Sunday.

[TroysMammy]

My DF worked shifts and we were always told to be quiet when he was sleeping after a night shift. We used to tiptoe around the house. It wasn't until I was married my husband pointed out I didn't need to walk on tiptoes around our house anymore.

[stitchglitched]

mrspatel your post is very offensive and others have already been deleted for making such nasty sweeping judgements about children with SN and their parenting.

[alittlehelp]

With my tantrum king the only way to get him to stop is to ignore him. I guess to a neighbour that might sound like I'm doing nothing but it's not the case. Anyway yes probably not so relevant to this situation.