Only 41% want to brexit now, time to vote again asap

[Idreamofalandrover]

www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1EA0Q6

Biggest swing towards remain now people are smelling the coffee

I assure you, justanotherlurker, that the things I have just described were facts, not "facts", and very much known to anyone who could be bothered to do a modicum of research.

You can't because he was nominated by the European Council and appointed by the Parliament. I know... I KNOW you're going to use this as evidence that the EU is therefore undemocratic but I won't be drawn on that because the EU's structure is democratic.

And there is the semantics. The EU structure is democratic, we just cant get rid of or vote to have elected the people who run it. FFS

And that is exactly why I want to leave, because a democratic structure is useless to UK voters subjected to EU rule. We need a democracy where we can elect or reject the politicians and their platforms, that run it. It might be US democracy or EU democracy but it isn't UK democracy.

its funny how you think holding a referendum as being democratic

Who thinks this?

Julie8008

What do you think of our own system in the UK? If you think the EU undemocratic you must think our own far worse?

Right. Well we're leaving the "undemocratic" EU now, job done, so why are you posting about Brexit on Mumsnet and not busy campaigning for the abolition of the monarchy, the unelected upper chamber and the first past the post electoral system, Julie?

People should vote properly in the first place instead of being ignorant. I don't believe in a repeat vote! Whole point of a vote is to vote once and think about your decision before you vote not afterwards .

What do you think of our own system in the UK?
I find the binary system in the US unpleasant because there is no third option. I find the PR system in European countries unpleasant because extremists can win seats in power and coalitions are the norm, so no one knows which coalition/manifesto they are voting for before the election. In the UK we usually have a third option, we dont usually get extremists in power and we only rarely get coalitions.

I can meet my representative at the local pub for a chat and I can comprehend who I want leaders in or out without studying for a PHD in politics. So on balance I think the UK has a pretty good democracy.

In the EU parliament, I have no idea what my vote means overall and have no power to vote leaders in or out or power. But apparently that's ok because the 'structure'[ is solid, whatever that means no gravy train there then, move along nothing to see here.

abolition of the monarchy, the unelected upper chamber and the first past the post electoral system

1. The monarchy are figureheads and have no real power.
2. I will vote to get rid of the Lords.
3. The FPTP system works very well.

@Julie8008 The European Parliament is elected. The European Council comprises governments/leaders of member states.

It might be US democracy or EU democracy but it isn't UK democracy.

What does that even mean?

It hasn't even been that long since spitzenkandidaten and my brain is already fried! I need to lie down.

What do you mean, we usually have a "third option"?

Unless you live in Scotland, your options are essentially the Tories or Labour. The system doesn't allow smaller parties to get a look in.

We are told that this is to ensure that we have strings majority governments who can implement their policies, and that this is worth the democratic deficit inherent in such an unrepresentative system.

Ironic, then, that since 2010 we have had five years' worth of coalition, two years' worth of Tory government with a wafer thin majority, and six months' worth of catastrophically weak and incompetent Tory minority government, being propped up by ten extremists in the DUP (who had to be bunged a load of cash).

Not sure what you've been smoking if you think we have "a pretty good democracy".

Thanks to first past the post, my votes in UK general elections have never counted for anything. The only elections I've ever voted in where my vote has actually been worth a damn were the European Parliament elections, but idiots like Julie voted to take that right to vote away from me in the name of "democracy".

Because our democracy is better than European democracy.

Even though it plainly isn't.

It feels to me like the people who say "We" will get control back, are talking about a "We" I cannot identify with.

I suspect it's a populist "We" they mean. An appeal to the "We" that believes in an intangible corrupt elite actively, intellectually, unfairly, conspiring and conniving against the "good" masses. People like Hugo Chavez, Juan Perón, Duterte, Erdogan & Trump all pretend to be champions of the "good" masses against these "bad" elites.

@lljkk

Surely, you it within your mental capacity to know this was a tongue in cheek statement.

it's OK for you to call Leave voters racists though?

@LoveInTokyo

Have you ever been outside Britain?

Have you got any relatives in other countries?

I have. I'm guessing you haven't.

Thanks to first past the post, my votes in UK general elections have never counted for anything

Thanks to the EU system my votes in EU elections have also never counted for anything. Lets have a referendum to change both those. Oh wait we did, and voted to leave the EU but keep FPTP. Democracy at last.

What do you mean, we usually have a "third option"? Ummm we usually had the LibDems to vote for. Turns out they were shite.

Julie, your votes in European Parliament elections (assuming you could be bothered to vote) counted as much as anyone else's because they use a proportional representation system, which is much fairer.

Re the Lib Dems, turns out they were the only thing stopping the Tories from going completely off the rails for five years. But a realistic third option? Not really.

Because you see, thanks to the undemocratic, disproportionate, unrepresentative FPTP system, they got 12 seats with 2,371,910 votes, whereas the Tories got 317 seats with 13,635,584 votes.

How's your maths?

That's nearly 200,000 votes per seat for the Lib Dems, and just over 40,000 votes per seat for the Tories. Gosh, that's a bit disproportionate, isn't it? No wonder they can't win any elections.

Computer, I bloody live abroad.

@LoveInToky

oh please!

living in France isn't exactly 'abroad' is it? The northern french are more or less like us.

if you like French culture so much, why are you on Mumsnet 24/7 talking to English language people?

France isn't abroad? WTF...

You are a prize plum, you are.

LoveInTokyo, your votes.... counted as much as anyone else's because they use a proportional representation system, which is much fairer

In that respect all votes count in all elections yes. But it seems many people dont consider their votes as counting unless they win the poll.

To describe PR as fairer is a matter for debate, if you like letting extremists into parliament then yes they are fairer, if you like coalitions that no one votes for then yes they are fairer, if you like weak governments then yes they are fairer, if you like paralysis then yes they are fairer.

Germany is a great example not of democracy given months go by without a forming a government and far right extremists winning seats. Not to mention Austria. And then there is Greece... Yea we should copy Europeans.

@LoveInTokyo

Les gens qui prétendent être sophistiqués

Julie, the government is weak and currently being dictated to by extremists. Have you not read the news in the last six months or did you just not understand what was going on?

FFS so LoveInTokyo lives abroad and is on MN lecturing British people that they are not good enough Europeans. I have heard it all now.

LoveInTokyo - Yes the government is relatively weak but that is unusual, I didn't say the UK system was perfect. As for being dictated to by extremists, I think its very offensive to call the majority of UK voters extremists.