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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Only 41% want to brexit now, time to vote again asap

611 replies

Idreamofalandrover · 16/12/2017 22:25

www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1EA0Q6

Biggest swing towards remain now people are smelling the coffee

OP posts:
Moussemoose · 19/12/2017 19:45

You cannot keep having a vote until you get the answer you want, that what dictators do

That's it! The shark has been jumped. I give up. I'm not going to explain democracy again. I'm going to find a dark cupboard and lock myself in.

Humpsfor20yards · 19/12/2017 19:49

Julie: we need to build a sovereign country that is also economically self reliant.

How do we do that?

Julie. I'm not telling you. You'll just criticize it.

Julie. I'm not telling you. Look up prominent leavers. They'll tell you.

Julie. Meh, we'll find out after Brexit.

Julie. Actually, I've got no idea. But nor do you, so ha.

I think you convey the Brexitteer mind-set brilliantly.

Humpsfor20yards · 19/12/2017 19:53

Hopefully, they will all move to Juncker town, drink the Kool Aid and die.

Wow.

specialsubject · 19/12/2017 19:57

So much hate. Shameful.

TheElementsSong · 19/12/2017 19:59

Hopefully, they will all move to Juncker town, drink the Kool Aid and die.

Now, this must be a quote from a Remainer, right, because they're the sneering bullies and Leavers are blameless victims. Oh, wait.

KennDodd · 19/12/2017 20:10

Maybe Julie's talking about our great new pigs ears industry. We can bin banking, don't need it when you've got pigs ears.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/selling-pigs-ears-to-china-means-silk-purses-for-british-farmers-claims-michael-gove-9mjp9k6xj

LittleMissBrainy · 19/12/2017 20:15

@Moussemoose

That's it! The shark has been jumped. I give up. I'm not going to explain democracy again. I'm going to find a dark cupboard and lock myself in.

Clearly I've missed something, apologies, I've not had time to rtft. Maybe I shouldn't have commented without reading tft but if you could explain it one more time I would be (actually) interested to hear it. I can't promise you'll change my mind but it's always good to have own views challenged! However, looking at the bickering of the last few posts, I totally understand if you'd rather not.

JacquesHammer · 19/12/2017 20:18

@LittleMissBrainy

You cannot keep having a vote until you get the answer you want, that what dictators do

The explanation is firstly democracy doesn't end at the ballot box. The very essence of democracy is that it allows protest and question.

Secondly there WILL be another vote before/if we leave - parliament have to vote on the final deal.

lljkk · 19/12/2017 20:31

I reported the (original) KoolAid comment. That's outrageous. Angry

KennDodd · 19/12/2017 20:32

Article here about the economic so far if anybody's interested.

www.ft.com/content/e3b29230-db5f-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482

Moussemoose · 19/12/2017 20:35

You cannot keep having a vote until you get the answer you want, that what dictators do

Dictators don't usually have votes once they are dictators. If dictators do allow elections they make sure the result is the one they wanted.

We have regular elections because people change their minds. That is a good thing. Lots of countries have more elections than we do because people change their minds.

Referenda usually require more than a straight majority to become law. Significant changes often require a two thirds majority of the electorate and/or the legislative chamber.

Asking Parliament to confirm the Brexit deal would be the very essence of representative democracy.

lljkk · 19/12/2017 20:37

Very interesting programme on R4 right now about populism. I will try to listen again when my brain is less tired. Basically saying that Brexit is the start of a massive constitutionalism change (Douglas Carswell among those who like that).

Populism, conspiracy theories: awful awful awful.

Julie8008 · 19/12/2017 20:38

Humpsfor20yards You can make fun of my opinion as much as you want but it makes you look childish to imply I am wrong just because I cant tell you the outcome of a negotiation that happened yet.

Democracy can be so far removed from the voters that it becomes a joke. How many UK voters know who their MEP is, which European group they are in, what their manifesto is, or how their vote is linked to any one of the many EU presidents, counsel or parliament. The EU superstate has become whether by design or accident so far removed from the electorate that is is for all intents and purposes undemocratic. And that is one reason why we are leaving.

JacquesHammer · 19/12/2017 20:39

How many UK voters know who their MEP is

Oh come on, that's not hard to find out. The electorate should be capable of finding out the most basic of facts surely?

LittleMissBrainy · 19/12/2017 20:40

@JacquesHammer
Thank you, for your explanation. I understand (and am thankful) that democracy allows protest and question but when the vote is as close as it was (and is likely to be again if there is another, whichever outcome we get), surely a line has to be drawn somewhere? As I stated, I am a remainder myself, but the country voted leave, and contrary to popular belief, there were genuine reasons for doing so (at least from all the leavers I debated IRL with).

I also realise that there will be further parliamentary votes, I was talking about another public vote that some people seem to think could happen.

I actually feel greatly for TM, it must be completely awful to have to do something you know half the country is going to strongly hate. I would not want to be in her shoes!

Moussemoose · 19/12/2017 20:43

Julie8008
removed from the electorate that is is for all intents and purposes undemocratic

I would be fascinated to find out how a directly elected body is undemocratic because people don't/won't/ can't educate themselves about it. Please could you explain the thought process behind that statement.

zsazsajuju · 19/12/2017 20:44

gosh - there's a lot of crazy on here.

As for being self sufficient, probably one of the few universally accepted economic rules is that self sufficiency (autarky) makes a nation poorer. a lot poorer.

and as for trading, nations almost always trade with next door nations the most. Also large countries and economic zones such as the EU are in the best position to obtain good trade deals with third countries as they have a lot to give (access to their own markets obv)

We will be poorer after brexit, likely a lot poorer than we would otherwise be. And thats apart even from the other benefits of the EU we would be losing.

It horrifies me that Boris Johnston/Nigel Farage get to flush my wallet down the toilet as well as their own. Anything we can do to get out of it (democratically) would be fine with me.

lljkk · 19/12/2017 20:45

I have 7 MEPs. Multiples (Seven) rather depersonalises it.
My guess which parties without looking: 3xCons, 2xUKIP, 2x other.

Wikipedia says: 3 x Cons, 3xUKIP, 1x other. I was close!!. Hate UKIP, they deliberately take money from EU and pointedly do no work there. That's how they know so intimately how useless MEPs are.

3 of them I've heard the name before.

Julie8008 · 19/12/2017 20:47

The electorate should be capable of finding out the most basic of facts surely?

Of course its possible millions of people could be forced educated in the labyrinthine complexities of EU presidents, parliaments, councils, groupings, MEPs etc etc etc
It doesn't matter who you blame for it not happening but it hasn't happened.

And for that reason it has become undemocratic and we need to bring the EUs powers back to our country close to, where the millions of voters can comprehend how it all works.

allegretto · 19/12/2017 20:53

Everyone who wanted to was given a vote ? How isn’t it democracy ??
What? No, they weren't! "Wanting to vote" was not the criteria for getting a vote. Angry

How many UK voters know who their MEP is
Well, I am guessing everyone who is actually interested in the EU. If you DON'T know then really should you have been voting? As Jacques says, these are really not hard things to find out in this day and age. I follow my MEP on FB fgs - I know more about her day-to-day movements than I do my husband's!

Moussemoose · 19/12/2017 20:53

Julie8008

You really think people are that stupid? The European Parliament is directly elected. A different voting system is used, a form of PR used in other countries. However, according to you, the UK electorate is uniquely stupid and don't understand it. How patronising of you to think so little of the UK electorate.

I have taught the EU constitution and structures - it is relatively easily understood by most 16 year olds.

allegretto · 19/12/2017 20:55

Julie8008 - your argument seems to be "people are thick and can't be trusted to vote". Interesting.

Julie8008 · 19/12/2017 20:56

I would be fascinated to find out how a directly elected body is undemocratic because people don't/won't/ can't educate themselves about it Because a president cannot be accountable to the people if they are unable to comprehend the process that elects or rejects him.

I can honestly say I have no idea at the last EU what platform Junker stood on and who I could have voted for to elect him or try and not elect him. The same goes for any of the 5 presidents. And if its impossible to connect a vote to a ruler how can anyone claim they are democratically elected.

KennDodd · 19/12/2017 20:57

However, according to you, the UK electorate is uniquely stupid and don't understand it.

Actually, I think she might have been proven right on that @Brexit Grin

KennDodd · 19/12/2017 20:58

Julie

Do you really not understand how EU elections work?

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