To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

In fact the evidence (that I keep posting and you keep ignoring) suggests that the majority of ordinary men don't rape women which is perhaps an impressive endorsement given all the encouragement they are given to think it's no big deal. If you're one of the good ones, why are you so defensive?

Sorry, that was to Stig!

They aren't really comparable

It's not a question of whether it's comparable. It's whether it's remotely justifiable to claim, as a woman, posting anonymously on an internet message board, with little justifiable evidence, that you know precisely how men understand the world around them, the particular factors that shape that understanding, and how and why they act upon that understanding, unless you yourself have lived that same set of experiences.

Failing to understand that in a rape culture, partaking in it, even as a rapist, is part of being ordinary. It’s not an ordinary man on a bad day, it can be an ordinary man on an ordinary day

I fully believe that men can and do understand rape culture and how it exists in the UK. Just not the men on this thread.

Let's see...
"Boys will be boys"
"He chases you around the playground because he likes you"
Kiss chase
Clothing choices = slut
Normalisation of giving women a few drinks to "loosen her up"
"Casting couch"
Normalisation of strip clubs
Normalisation of degrading and misogynistic porn
Treatment of victims of even convicted rapists
Rape as entertainment in popular film and TV shows
Minimisation of being groped in public.
All the posts on the relationship board where a woman is unsure whether she's been raped by her husband.
Revenge porn.
Women being told here that they should be "flattered" if their partner films them without their consent.
Victim blaming

That's just off the top of my head, but here, try this:
www.indy100.com/article/22-signs-we-live-in-a-rape-culture--gk_rqcmxml

Also stop with this "a Rape Culture" nonsense. The UK has a drinking culture, a rape culture, a culture of structural racism and misogyny, and ableist culture and various other cultures. It's a complex mix but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I think part of the issue is that it's a rather ambiguous/fluid concept.

So long as we have two sexes attracted to each other I think we're going to experience people making clumsy sexual passes, telling crude jokes, wolf whistling, etc.

It's not pleasant but I think it's inescapable. Just like how there will always be theft whilst there is poverty/inequity.

It’s only ambiguous or fluid if you’re not on the receiving end, in my experience

It’s only ambiguous or fluid if you’re not on the receiving end, in my experience

Yes. We’re back to the ‘shades of grey’/ abuse and REAL abuse aren’t we?

The men that won’t listen to women just keep coming don’t they?! I thought stig’s first point about collective v individual responsibility was interesting. But it was downhill from there.

I think that was RAINN's point to be fair.

I find misogynist dismissal of women's word and experiences fascinating. Women lie, exaggerate, are hysterical, altogether untrustworthy. Statistics overrule anything women have to say. Stats that are culled from a criminal justice system that is a patriarchal structure dominated by men and poorly understood by their proponent, Stig.

This is how women have been treated for 4000 years: you don't have a voice, your pov is not valid, if you complain about male behaviour you are slandering them.

All of you citing Ched Evans need to research the case and not fall into the trap of just believing what you see in the press. There was a great deal more to it than most people seem to want to believe.

And the notion that most men are sexual criminals is offensive. It was posited that one in 4 men has committed a sexual offense. That means that anyone who has a father, son, uncle and brother, knows someone who is a sexual criminal. Don't make the mistake of thinking 'not in my family'.

So long as we have two sexes attracted to each other I think we're going to experience people making clumsy sexual passes, telling crude jokes, wolf whistling, etc

What you're really saying is that you cannot differentiate between clumsy passes, jokes and sexual harassment/abuse.

Most of us accept we must know someone who has committed a sexual offence, even if we don’t know who/what it was, don’t we? I’m depressingly realistic about that fact.

So long as we have two sexes attracted to each other I think we're going to experience people making clumsy sexual passes, telling crude jokes, wolf whistling, etc

Which one of the sexes does MOST of this?

Do you mean mainly one of the sexes rather than a vague 'people'

Yes, I think everyone knows a sexual criminal. Everyone.

I personally have been assaulted, abused or raped by five men. So I know at least five, plus the umpteen others who no doubt abused, assaulted and raped that I don't know about.

Rape isn't committed by "sexual predators" and then everyone is a good guy. Rape is committed by ordinary people, because they can, and because in the moment their needs are more important than someone else's consent and I guarantee that you know someone who has acted on this belief.

Hence... rape culture.

“What you're really saying is that you cannot differentiate between clumsy passes, jokes and sexual harassment/abuse.”

It’s almost like a validation of my comment that men don’t want to examine their own behaviour!

megs

has anyone said that most men are sexual criminals

think part of the issue is that it's a rather ambiguous/fluid concept.

What the actual fuck?

No, it isn’t. And comments like that are part of rape culture. It’s grossly insulting to women who have been raped or sexually assaulted.

@Megs4x3 you should not fall into the trap of assuming that people haven't.

"So long as we have two sexes attracted to each other I think we're going to experience people making clumsy sexual passes, telling crude jokes, wolf whistling, etc.

It's not pleasant but I think it's inescapable. Just like how there will always be theft whilst there is poverty/inequity."

This is the problem right here. A man thinks that rape/sexual assault is inevitable. And compares it to theft.

It is ridiculously easy to avoid making "clumsy sexual passes" otherwise known as sexual assaults, telling crude jokes and wolf whistling. It's in fact a total piece of cake to avoid doing this. Men just don't want to.

So long as we have two sexes attracted to each other I think we're going to experience people making clumsy sexual passes, telling crude jokes, wolf whistling, etc

That doesn't mean we have to accept it. We should challenge people on this kind of attitude, speak out about it and make it unacceptable.

It's the old "#metoo means I can no longer smile at female colleagues as I pass them in the corridor" bollocks.

Women are very clear on the difference between being respectfully asked out and being sexually harassed and assaulted. If men aren't, they need to attend a class on consent.

*just like there will always be theft while there's poverty"

So you're equating the male need for sex to an impoverished person's need for food? I can't even begin to tell you how fucked up that is. Do you hear yourself?

The point I'm making is that some people seem to posit that rape culture is normalisation of literal rapes whilst others argue that the definition includes things like wolf whistling.

I doubt it tammy