To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

You're wrong OP!

There really isn't anywhere in the uk that I would be confident that no women are raped and that every woman reporting rape is appropriately helped.

In every part of the UK, women get catcalled, groped, and worse.

They are widely considered complicit in their abuse because of where they went and what they wore and what they drank.

So I'd say, yes, we have a rape culture. We may be beginning to move out of it, but there is a long way to go.

Jax you think women are only assaulted in nightclubs?

Really?

Yes, the UK has a rape culture.

Mills and Boon were, until recently, publishing romance novels in which the heroine is raped by the hero and this leads to happy ever after.

Until the 1990s, rape within marriage was legal.

Women are still routinely held up to ridiculous scrutiny when they report rape, and there are multiple cases of women being jailed for allegedly misreporting rape, which happens in practically no other country.

Women are still questioned in court about their sexual past during rape trials - see Ched Evans.

1/5 of women will experience sexual violence.

If you've not experienced that, then that's good, but I really don't think you can say the UK doesn't have a rape culture.

In the same way that Drug Culture exists, and some parts of the UK have a Drug Culture.

But the UK is not a Drug Culture.

That's kind of my point.

Here is a screen grab on Facebook about Toff doing well in I’m A Celebrity. Not seen a single comment about any of the men’s sexual history or genitalia. A women does well in a challenge and these comments appear. Challenge them and no doubt we would be told to ‘lighten up’ ‘get a life’ or called a ‘feminazi’ Talking about women like they are sex objects is common place male ‘banter’ and it’s very much part of normalising the sexual abuse of women.

Well, if you define rape culture in some way which doesn't mean 'women are likely to experience sexual assault and rape and are likely to be disbelieved', then yes, you are quite right.

Tell me what you meant then OP?

Did you mean it’s divided on social lines? Racial ones? By educational status? Financial status?

Which communities don’t have a culture of sexually assaulting women?

I’m genuinely interested.

'In the same way that Drug Culture exists, and some parts of the UK have a Drug Culture.

But the UK is not a Drug Culture.'

This makes no sense. If you're a woman in the UK, no matter where you live or what you do your chances of being sexually assaulted are very high and the chances of the person who assaulted you being convicted are very low. I think you're getting bogged down with the 'culture' word. What it means is that our society is not geared towards preventing and punishing rape and that is definitely true, no matter what statistics you look at.

"BigDeskBob the reason conviction rates are so low is because we still live in a system where you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Since the majority of rapes happen in private where it is a matter of he said/she said, proof is hard to come by.

Why is it important to you, to the point of arguing with a work colleague, to define the UK as not having an overall culture of rape? What practical difference does it make? Does it change anything for you?

Sexual assault is really trivialised in this country. When Bruno Langley from coronation street was in the media recently because he groped women in a club most people were defending him saying that being groped is a normal part of a night out.

Nope, that's not actually the reason Jaxhog, but there are people out there with strong motivations for making out that it is true.

I struggle to come up with any real changes to the legal sytem that could possibly change the conviction rate.

As jaxhog said, it has to proven guilty and so many cases are he said/ she said so convicting is hard.

What suggestions does anyone have?

A large reason for so many rapists go unconvicted is that women don't even report the assault/rape in the first place because they know they will be utterly humiliated by a system that tries to make out they were somehow to blame for being attacked.

Of course I don't think nightclubs are the only place women get raped! I was responding to the example given. I also don't believe woman are at high risk of rape everywhere either. I do agree that 'sexual assault' is pretty prevalent in UK society, but most of it is not in anything like the same league as rape. So no, I don't think we live in a rape culture.

@streetlife70s

Talking about men as though they are sex objects is commonplace; even on MN.

So what you’re really arguing is semantics?

What you seem to be saying is that unless we lived in some kind of primitive culture where women were essentially farmed and used as commodity, ie. some kind of Handmaid’s Tale scenario, nowhere can be a rape culture?

I don’t think anyone is trying so to say that rape culture is the only or main aspect of our society.

So because 'sexual assault' (why is it in quote marks??) isn't as bad as rape we shouldn't worry about it, is that it Jaxhog? Women are assaulted all the time but it's no big deal?

Yeah you're wrong here OP

Rqpe culture is insidious and everywhere

I have lived in other countries and I can assure you I have never felt more safe and comfortable as a woman than in the UK/ We may have our faults as a country and there may be work to do still, but other women elsewhere have it far worse.

In Rotherham and Rochdale it was a well known fact that men were grooming and exploiting and raping young girls. And nothing at all was done about it. Where else could that happen but in a rape culture?

Hmmmm. I can see what you’re saying OP. For example, if I was assaulted in this country and decided to press charges, I suspect I’d have better chances of at least being listened to than I would in some other countries. Whether that would actually lead to a conviction of any sort is highly unlikely, but I’d like to think that at least someone would LISTEN to be at least, whereas I suspect there are other places where no-one would even care at all

I find it really really sad when women say 'other women have it worse' heron - as though we should be happy to only have 85,000 women raped every year. This is the situation we've ended up in, where thousands upon thousands of rapes is a 'good' situation. Jesus.